# Son of SDMBMG: Guys and Dolls **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 8, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395 "2009-04-08T14:54:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/21 "2009-04-09T19:35:42Z")
I was thinking about Kathryn Grayson. I was also thinking about Jane Powell and Ann Blyth. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/22 "2009-04-09T20:03:37Z")
> [@choie](#): > > But Simmons? Sure, she was a popular star, but so were umpteen other actresses with much, much better voices. For example, Shirley Jones could’ve performed the hell out of this role, although admittedly she might’ve wanted to get away from ‘tightly-wound prudish virgin’ type – I don’t remember, was “The Music Man” after this or before? Anyway, Simmons’s acting was serviceable but nothing so brilliant that would make me forgive such execrable singing. So what the heck was behind her casting? “Guys and Dolls” was 1955, and “The Music Man” was 1962. Shirley Jones, however, was in “Oklahoma” which also came out in 1955 so it’s not likely she was available to play Sarah. It would have been interesting casting, though. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/23 "2009-04-09T20:12:58Z")
I didn’t buy Sinatra as Nathan Detroit–he doesn’t have the Jewishness needed to pull off the Yiddish in “Sue Me” (“So true. So nu\*? So sue me…”). And the rewrite of “Oldest Established” to give Nathan more singing time just made him sound silly. \*“so nu”=“so what? who cares” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/24 "2009-04-09T20:13:45Z")
My main problem with Jean Simmons was that she was too… well, English for the role. It was the same problem when Julie Andrews played Ethel Thayer in the TV production of _On Golden Pond_- many Brit actors do better regional American accents than most Americans but she’s not one of them, and I never once bought into her character as a New Yorker do-gooder raised by [Regis Toomey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regis_Toomey). My take on the character is that she’s from - not quite the projects or the streets but definitely not from wealth. Again not to bring in the seriousness of Les Mis, but like Javert much of her disdain for the people the mission services is born of 20/20 clarity- she’s actually right about most of them, and she’s been burned too many times to really have her compassion intact. One of her best lines is actually when she asks Skye- and I’m paraphrasing because I don’t remember it exactly- “would you consider any other woman a prude because she doesn’t want to go with a stranger to Havana?”- she’s really not a puritan, she’s just trying to reconcile realism and idealism and be true to her morals. In the movie Jean Simmons comes across as a hoity toity missionary who was never that devout to begin with who’s come to work with the savages and just wants to go home. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/25 "2009-04-09T21:10:28Z")
> [@choie](#): > > For example, Shirley Jones could’ve performed the hell out of this role, although admittedly she might’ve wanted to get away from ‘tightly-wound prudish virgin’ type – I don’t remember, was “The Music Man” after this or before? > [@Sigmagirl](#): > > I’ll see your Shirley Jones and raise you Doris Day, Mitzi Gaynor, and Virginia Mayo. Any one of them would have been better than Jean Simmons. > [@Sigmagirl](#): > > I was thinking about Kathryn Grayson. I was also thinking about Jane Powell and Ann Blyth. In 1955 Shirley Jones and Mitzi Gaynor were just too young to play the part. Doris Day hadn’t yet been frozen into the “Doris Day” stereotype yet, but she was definitely also an ingenue type. Jane Powell doesn’t do anything for me. Kathryn Grayson might have been an interesting pick, but I don’t think her voice fit the part at all. Just for the sake of discussion, how about Rosemary Clooney? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/26 "2009-04-09T23:02:21Z")
I’m not sure Rosemary Clooney had the inner “mwrar!” that the part needs – too thoroughgoing a good girl. Maybe Vera Ellen? Just watched it again – dozed off during “Pet Me Papa” and woke up at the beginning of “Guys and Dolls.” Apparently I’m in a minority, but I don’t regard missing “Adelaide’s Lament” a problem. I adore Brando in this role – he oozes sex, and managed to learn enough singing and dancing to pull off the role. However many takes of his songs they had to patch together, at least he sang them himself – not always the case in that era. Sinatra is too much the scrawny little weasel to be a good Sky Masterson. (Sky. Masterson. The name of the character makes it clear he’s larger than life.) A word for the dancing, choreographed by Michael Kidd, who also did _Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, The Band Wagon,_ etc. I adore the angular, stylized, quintessentially '50s look of it. I love the opening number, which sets the scene – literally – and introduces us to the milieu, then segues immediately into the delightful “Fugue for Tinhorns.” The Havana dance showcases the women upright and proud and all the men but Brando (who slinks sinuously through the number) bent over at the waist – similar to the sharply angular poses of the opening number, and to the crouched leaps of the gamblers in the sewer in the pre-“Luck Be a Lady” dance number. Great visuals, wonderfully athletic dancing. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/27 "2009-04-10T12:47:56Z")
OK, so we have been thinking pretty much of musical comedy stars. But Brando was cast and most agree he did a great job. So what about actresses who weren’t known for musicals but who might have been better than Simmons? Susan Hayward. Could Joanne Woodward sing? She would have been 25, and made her first film in 1955. Eva Marie Saint would have been 31 and had just made \*On the Waterfront \*with Brando the year before. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/28 "2009-04-10T13:53:58Z")
Oh, and let me add to the Stubby Kay love – he has three of the best moments in the movie: “Fugue for Tinhorns,” “Sit Down You’re Rockin’ the Boat,” – and the blush and shrug he gives when the general catches his eye at the wedding. A brilliant 2-second gesture. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/29 "2009-04-10T14:26:10Z")
I love Fugue For Tinhorns. It’s what made me fall in love with the musical in the first place, even though I wound up liking Guys and Dolls and Luck Be A Lady better. When I first saw the production in high school, that opening bit was so cleverly done that I knew immediately I was going to enjoy the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/30 "2009-04-10T23:30:00Z")
> [@lawoot](#): > > What? They give away part of _Sit Down_ to another character? No, no, no!! This is Nicely’s song, and always was. (Yes I played Nicely once, years ago, in a high school production - my second musical) > > Who else gets a stanza? Which stanza (or did they write a new one)? The General got some new lines. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395/31 "2009-04-21T13:21:54Z")
Was listening to NPR on the way home and they interviewed Oliver Platt, who is the new Nathan Detroit on Broadway. I love Oliver Platt! Here is a link to the story: [Good Old Reliable Oliver Platt In 'Guys And Dolls' : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103295559) He says he has \*never seen \*the movie! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmbmg-guys-and-dolls/492395.md?page=1)