# Sondheim Sez: Lie to Me, Damnit! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 22, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024 "2014-05-22T19:17:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024/41 "2014-05-23T21:00:03Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > ‘Saying something nice’ involves showing that the speaker has paid attention, and is willing to look for something positive in the work just experienced. If the speaker has taken the time to find something the speaker genuinely likes, and mentions it to the creator with sincere sentiments, then that speaker has been polite (and kind). I think it’s worth noting that the person quoted in the OP specifically rejects the idea that they said something nice, just not that they loved it. “Sondheim asked them what they thought of the show: they both were silent. Brown described the dinner after that moment as ‘many extremely awkward silences punctuated by bursts of frantic, desperate conversation about anything other than the slaughtered elephant in the room.’” I still think that while Sondheim is being slightly dramatic, the only people who have erred here are the people who couldn’t manage to come up with so much as a melody that they found charming. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024/42 "2014-05-23T21:38:34Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Creative people thrive on feedback, doesn’t matter if it’s good or bad. Negative feedback tells you where you can improve next time, while positive feedback is an automatic ego-stroker (and who doesn’t like that?) Even phony positive feeback that you can see right through is better than NO feedback at all. The worst review you can give to a creative person’s work is absolute silence, or saying something along the lines of, “I have no response to that.” Otherwise, what’s the point of expressing yourself? I had missed that they hadn’t said anything when asked, not even weak praise by comparing it to some of his better work. I can feel for Mr. Brown in this case, because I would have been presented with the same problem he was. I don’t like Sweeny Todd, and really can’t find much that I liked in it. I might find something I liked if I put it through repeated listens, but they didn’t get that opportunity that night. If I was there, I would have answered something along the lines of: “I don’t think it was as good as West Side Story (which I love), but I think it will do really well.” It’s not “I hated Sweeny Todd!”, which would be the whole truth, but it wouldn’t be a lie, either. However, if the reported story is accurate, nothing besides fawning praise is acceptable to Sondheim in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024/43 "2014-05-23T22:49:42Z")
I’m an artist, and understand Sondheim’s position. Opening Night is a celebration of all the work I’ve put into my art. It gets really depressing if all that work didn’t come across as something wonderful to every single person. But on the other hand, I can totally see through anyone’s faint praise; it just doesn’t sound genuine. In fact, I’d rather hear statements of honesty than anything fake. Sondheim has the luxury of having so many fans who truly love his work (myself included), that anyone he actually invites to an opening is probably someone who will most likely have positive reactions, no matter what. I also have fans who like my art, but I could never take them for granted, and assume their approval. I think a lot of it has to do with the complexity of his work. There are so many people involved, and any lack of a stellar performance can bring everything down. In my case, I’m the only person involved, and I just don’t show anything that’s not as good as it can be. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024/44 "2014-05-23T23:09:15Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > You are a guest at someone’s house for dinner. They prepare a meal and clearly went to effort. At the end, as folks are moving to the sitting room, one of them asks “how was dinner?” > > To me there is only ONE way to answer that question: It was great, thank you; perhaps with a notable comment about 1 or 2 things to make it clear you were paying attention. > > How is this situation any different? Because in this situation the host says, “Listen, I really want to know what your honest feelings are: how was the dinner?” ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024/45 "2014-05-23T23:50:57Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > For what it’s worth–I getcha. Completely. Thanks for that. After posting I regretted having been cranky, because I know as well as anyone that we sometimes post in forums on the basis of _‘skim, then decide what you believe the person said, then reply to that’_…and that process can produce errors.\* Anyway, we’re all at the disadvantage of not knowing how accurate Brown’s account really is. I wonder if Sondheim relayed the “tell me you loved it” message to anyone else?..that would be interesting to know. (I did a search of “you loved it” and “Sondheim,” but can’t see anything except references to the Jason Robert Brown anecdote.) Parenthetically: one of the first-page hits from that search includes an interpretation of the story that leaves out some of the elements we’ve been discussing as being crucial to evaluating the rights and wrongs of the situation. Those are, one, that silence was the response to Sondheim’s request for feedback, and two, that Sondheim’s request for feedback was prompt and forthright (“after twenty minutes, Sondheim asked them what they thought of the show.”) Here’s that account: > [@](#): > > But the story goes that these two young guys are living in New York and dreaming of writing musicals, following in the footsteps of their idol, Stephen Sondheim. They meet him and are thrilled to be invited to see one of his shows. > > After the show, the story goes, Sondheim takes them to dinner. They don’t know what to say; they didn’t like the show. So they make awkward chitchat. Finally, after an eternity, Sondheim mumbles, “So, uh, did you like the show?” > > They try to disguise their opinions but it is clear to Sondheim that they didn’t like the show, and it makes things very uncomfortable. Sometime after this very awkward dinner, one of them calls Sondheim to patch things up and this is what Sondheim reportedly said: [http://www.salon.com/2011/03/15/just\_say\_i\_loved\_it/](http://www.salon.com/2011/03/15/just_say_i_loved_it/) …then follows the same wording as given in the OP quotation. Interestingly, the writer who re-worked the anecdote to _exclude_ the quick-and-direct query from Sondheim and the resulting silence from JRB and his companion, comes down on the ‘it’s best to say _I Loved It_, no matter how you really feel’ side of the issue. \*Such as a perceived imperative on the part of some to tell me that Courtesy is Good, even though I’d never argued _against_ ‘saying something nice’. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024/46 "2014-05-24T00:21:59Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think it’s worth noting that the person quoted in the OP specifically rejects the idea that they said something nice, just not that they loved it. > “Sondheim asked them what they thought of the show: they both were silent. Brown described the dinner after that moment as ‘many extremely awkward silences punctuated by bursts of frantic, desperate conversation about anything other than the slaughtered elephant in the room.’” > I still think that while Sondheim is being slightly dramatic, the only people who have erred here are the people who couldn’t manage to come up with so much as a melody that they found charming. I agree with you that the guests didn’t behave well (assuming the situation truly was as described). In that context, silence was rude. They should have found something that they genuinely liked and mentioned it. I don’t agree that the guests were the only people who erred–again, if the situation was reported accurately. If Sondheim really did say “_If I beg you, plead with you to tell me what you really thought, what you actually, honestly, totally believed, then you must tell me "I loved it_”…if he really said that, then he was being obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024/47 "2014-05-24T03:18:51Z")
Stephen Sondheim is (predictably) entirely correct. I do a lot of theater, and my wife is a concert musician as are several members of her immediate family; nearly all of my friends are performers of one kind of or another. Even my kid sings, dances, and plays piano. So I see a _lot_ of performances (and am involved in quite a few myself). In the immediate aftermath of a performance, the only thing you will ever hear me say to a friend (or family member) who has performed is some variation on: “That was wonderful; you were terrific; you should be very proud of yourself.” I will do this sincerely, with a smile, without prompting, and I will do it whether I thought the performance was the greatest thing I ever saw or whether I’m going to go home and stare directly at the sun for four hours to wash the horror of performance out of my eyes. Why would I do otherwise? This person is my friend (my wife, my daughter). Their happiness is way more important to me than some arbitrary commitment to “honesty” (which, in this context, really is just a desperate, narcissistic need to believe that one’s opinion matters). I _am_ proud of them, and they _do_ deserve to be proud of themselves. They put in hours of work; they exercised considerable talent. If my daughter missed a phrase in her recital, if the musical for which my friend is playing piano had a plot no one could understand, if my wife yakked the high note in her solo: what of it? Can they fix it now, with my oh-so-valuable input? Or can I just let them enjoy the high of the performance - because again, I care about them more than my own need to Tell the Truth? If you are a person’s friend and they have just completed something that they are proud of and that took them a great deal of time and effort to accomplish, just be supportive, for god’s sake. Just smile and hug them or shake their hand. Analysis is useless and unwelcome at that point. And yes, _even if they ask you to be honest_, in those few hours right after the thing is done, just be noncommittal and positive and cheerful. You lose NOTHING by doing this. Nothing. And the time will come, a day or a week later, when you’ll sit down to dinner, out of that immediate heightened post-performance mood, and they’ll ask again. And _then_ you have the conversation, you offer your feedback, they accept it, they learn from it, etcetera etcetera. All Sondheim is saying is that you don’t have to crap on somebody’s parade in the name of “honesty.” Just hold off until the parade is over, for Pete’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024/48 "2014-05-24T12:18:10Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I keep saying that I’m not arguing against saying something nice. > > I will go on saying it. There will come a moment—and I have faith in this!—when _some_ readers, at least, understand that in all my posts after the first in this thread, I’ve specifically mentioned (or at least implied) that saying something nice is a good thing to do. > > When that moment occurs, those posters will realize that I’ve _repeatedly_ stated that I’m not arguing against saying something nice. In fact, I’ve stated that I’m not arguing against saying something nice many, many times in this thread. > > It will be a delightful (and memorable) moment when some are _finally_ able to comprehend a fact about this thread: that I’ve repeatedly stated that making a polite remark is a good thing to do. > > …the distinction that is apparently _impossible_ to see for some, seems to be between ‘saying something nice’ and ‘following a command to say “I loved it.”’ > > ‘Saying something nice’ and ‘saying “I loved it”’ are _not_ synonymous. They are not the same thing. They differ fundamentally. > > ‘Saying something nice’ involves showing that the speaker has paid attention, and is willing to look for something positive in the work just experienced. If the speaker has taken the time to find something the speaker genuinely likes, and mentions it to the creator with sincere sentiments, then that speaker has been polite (and kind). > > Saying “I loved it” is something else altogether. “I loved it” is a statement of the speaker’s own values, taste, and judgment. To demand that the speaker misrepresent his or her reaction to the work is unfair and unreasonable. > > This is the distinction that (from the evidence in this thread) some posters understand quite well, but other posters simply can’t see. > > We may have to leave it at that. No, I get you, too. The real pivot point is whether Sondheim just said “hey, what did you think?” vs. “I really want to know.” If the latter, your comments fit. **scabpicker** - I hear you overall. It is better to say what you think. I also think that if I find myself talking to someone who is deeply respected in their field, I would be very, very diplomatic. I think you know the #1 guitarist for me is Jeff Beck - but, as I have said here, a lot of his songs are simply bad - amazing playing tied to an experiment that didn’t work. If he asked me what I thought, I would say “I loved your playing” not “I hated the song.” ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024/49 "2014-05-24T22:53:19Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > OTOH in art/showbiz circles it’s probably near axiomatic that creators and performers are in a semipermanent state of fishing for compliments and looking for validation, and unlike in other environments of human interaction, it’s \*\*\*not \*\*\*looked upon badly there. Actually, no. In art/showbiz circles it’s near axiomatic that if you start picking a show to pieces, to the people involved, _on opening night_, you are being a dick. It’s also near axiomatic that creators and performers are in a semipermanent state of trying to make their work better, and unlike in some other environments of human interaction, it’s not looked upon badly there. These are people who are very used to taking criticism, to a level that would be gobsmacking to people in most jobs, and who are incredibly serious about making their work as good as is humanly possible. Actors will spend the evening after a show sitting in the pub with their mates, with everyone picking the show to pieces and trying to work out why that mood change in Scene 5 really isn’t working and could it be because the pacing leading up to it is too slow or maybe Joe needs to keep his focus on Liz for longer so that Laurie’s entrance takes him by surprise or maybe Dave’s monologue needs to pack more punch and OK we’ll come in a couple of hours early tomorrow and try a bunch of stuff till we make it work. Except on opening night. When they’ve just spent weeks or months or years busting their asses trying to make this show perfect, and all they want to do is slowly come down off the adrenaline high and feel like all that work paid off. Which is why any actor with any sense never, ever asks anyone ‘No, seriously, give me your honest feedback, I really want to know every detail of what you think, please please please’ on opening night. Anyone who volunteers negative feedback is, like I said, being a total dick…but if you basically demand it, you’re being ridiculous. (Although it sounds to me like Sondheim was just being hyperbolic about that anyway.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sondheim-sez-lie-to-me-damnit/689024.md?page=2)