# Song of Ice and Fire - Jon (\*SPOILERS\* for Game of Thrones!!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 1, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555 "2012-05-01T20:48:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/1 "2012-05-01T20:48:52Z")
This thread will contain open spoilers for Game of Thrones watchers or anyone who has not finished reading the series. Caveat Lector! ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/2 "2012-05-01T20:53:02Z")
So, several discussions have come up about Ned Stark’s supposed bastard son Jon Snow and his real parentage. We’ve heard three possibilities for a Mother, Willa the wet nurse, Lyanna Stark, and another higborn lady whose name escapes me at the moment - the one who threw herself from the rocks. Throughout the series there are moments of symmetry, and I keep thinking that Jon sending the Wildling “Prince” off with Gilly may be one of them. Could there have been two bastards born near the same time, one to Lyanna and one to the other highborn lady? And Ned took Lyanna’s child and sent his off with Willa? If so, any guesses whether we’ve seen Ned’s real child yet? And if Rhaegar is Jon’s Da, do you think Maester Aeron suspected? What’s your theory? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/3 "2012-05-01T20:57:42Z")
My theory is R + L = J. Well not mine but it’s the one i believe. As far as Ashara Dayne goes, my guess is she really did kill herself when she found out the man she loved (and who probably loved her back) killed her brother. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/4 "2012-05-01T21:00:54Z")
Do we have any reason to think that Ned actually had a bastard of his own? ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/5 "2012-05-01T21:07:38Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Do we have any reason to think that Ned actually had a bastard of his own? Well Barristan Selmy was also in love with the Dayne chick, and he mentions that she loved a Stark and killed herself over him, but he doesn’t specify which Stark. I think there is a lot of evidence that R+L= J. Frankly though, I hope Jon’s fucking dead and that he stays dead. He was always too angsty and too much of a boy scout for my tastes. Plus I like the idea that destiny doesn’t intend for Rhaegar’s son to be king, because there is no destiny. And if there was, it doesn’t necessarily respect the custom of primogeniture. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/6 "2012-05-01T21:08:34Z")
Ashara’s (Thank you Digital!) suicide, for one. Also the comment about Willa being the real Mother. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/7 "2012-05-01T21:15:16Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Well Barristan Selmy was also in love with the Dayne chick, and he mentions that she loved a Stark and killed herself over him, but he doesn’t specify which Stark. > > I think there is a lot of evidence that R+L= J. > > Frankly though, I hope Jon’s fucking dead and that he stays dead. He was always too angsty and too much of a boy scout for my tastes. Plus I like the idea that destiny doesn’t intend for Rhaegar’s son to be king, because there is no destiny. And if there was, it doesn’t necessarily respect the custom of primogeniture. Hmm, according to the Song of Ice and Fire Wiki, Barristan says that Ashara Dayne gave birth to a stillborn girl. Which I suppose could have been Ned’s, but probably means she wasn’t Jon’s mother. Then again, maybe Barristan just got his facts wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/8 "2012-05-01T21:17:25Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Hmm, according to the Song of Ice and Fire Wiki, Barristan says that Ashara Dayne gave birth to a stillborn girl. Which I suppose could have been Ned’s, but probably means she wasn’t Jon’s mother. Then again, maybe Barristan just got his facts wrong. I hope he’s alive in Ghost, and he’s off to find Nymeria, who’s been referred to often, and it’s about time they did something with her. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/9 "2012-05-01T21:22:28Z")
> [@SecretaryofEvil](#): > > Hmm, according to the Song of Ice and Fire Wiki, Barristan says that Ashara Dayne gave birth to a stillborn girl. Which I suppose could have been Ned’s, but probably means she wasn’t Jon’s mother. Then again, maybe Barristan just got his facts wrong. The wiki also says that it’s implied (albeit not confirmed) that Brandon was the father, which agrees with my memory of it. I really, really hope that we don’t have to spend half the next book with Jon running around in Ghost’s body. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/10 "2012-05-01T22:54:31Z")
At this point I’d be shocked if it was anything other than R+L=J. It just fits too well. > [@DianaG](#): > > I really, really hope that we don’t have to spend half the next book with Jon running around in Ghost’s body. Same here. I found all the Bran/wolf parts to be among the most boring scenes in the series. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/11 "2012-05-01T22:59:11Z")
The only reason I’m still uncertain about the R+L theory is that given how they have developed the story so far in the TV show, it’s going to be hard to make the reveal work. Since they appear to have eliminated the Howland Reed character, there’s no one to tell Jon who his parents are. Everyone who could know is dead. Further, without the Tower of Joy scenes, there’s no frames of reference of the viewers. It can only come out of left field and be really jarring. But who knows? Maybe they are okay with it coming off like a soap opera reveal. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/12 "2012-05-01T23:04:34Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > I found all the Bran/wolf parts to be among the most boring scenes in the series. I thought they were positively spine-tingling in comparison with him turning into a tree. ---
**Author:** ![TheBoltEater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheBoltEater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheBoltEater)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/13 "2012-05-02T01:17:11Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Do we have any reason to think that Ned actually had a bastard of his own? From Book 1 I’ve always thought that it would turn out that Jon was not Ned’s bastard son. We’re told so many times that Ned would never do anything like that, except, of course, for that one time that he did. I was always waiting for the reveal – Ned would never have a bastard, cause Ned doesn’t do that sort of thing. I told you that. I _kept_ telling you that. So guess what? Ned didn’t have a bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/14 "2012-05-02T01:30:05Z")
It’s Rhaegar and Lyanna. If it turns out those aren’t his parents it’ll only be because GRRM ends up hating his fans and does it as a “fuck you” to the fandom. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/15 "2012-05-02T01:37:09Z")
We had a bit of discussion about this on the last page of this general [Dance with Dragons thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=616260&page=7&highlight=tower+hand). There’s a great summary of all the theories for Jon’s parentage in this [Tower of the Hand article](http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html). Note you’ve got to select which book you’ve read up to in the scope box at the top of the page to see the article. The R+L=J equation seems pretty convincing. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/16 "2012-05-02T01:38:51Z")
> [@TheBoltEater](#): > > From Book 1 I’ve always thought that it would turn out that Jon was not Ned’s bastard son. We’re told so many times that Ned would never do anything like that, except, of course, for that one time that he did. > > I was always waiting for the reveal – Ned would never have a bastard, cause Ned doesn’t do that sort of thing. I told you that. I _kept_ telling you that. So guess what? Ned didn’t have a bastard. Yeah, me too. The whole POINT of Ned is that he’s honorable to a fault. To the point of it being a fatal flaw, even. Ned is so honorable that not only would he not cheat on his wife, he’d let everyone (including his wife\*) think he cheated on his wife to protect the honor of his dead sister. \*Which is another bit of evidence, IMO. It doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t tell Catelyn, who he seems to trust in all other things, just to protect Lyanna’s secret. The ONLY thing I can imagine sensitive enough to keep from even Cat is that the boy is a Targaryen. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/17 "2012-05-02T01:48:24Z")
Well keep in mind at that point Cat was pretty much a complete stranger to him. I’m sure it took years to develop love, or even basic trust. By that point “oh btw my bastard son is actually a Targaryen” would probably not have gone over well, like Chris Rock says “gotta stick with your lie”. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/18 "2012-05-02T01:55:16Z")
I think it would have gone over like gangbusters, personally. Sure, she’d be pissed that he lied for so long, but she’s understand why and the truth would be nothing but a relief to her. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/19 "2012-05-02T01:58:04Z")
She’s also prone to emotional outbursts. It’s easier to keep a secret when two people than it than when three do. Ned takes shit seriously, yo. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/20 "2012-05-02T02:00:50Z")
That I’ll go along with. And that was BEFORE she was undead and extra-cranky! 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555.md?page=2)