# Song of Ice and Fire - Jon (\*SPOILERS\* for Game of Thrones!!) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 1, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555 "2012-05-01T20:48:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/41 "2012-05-02T18:11:06Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > We know that a Red Priest can restore life to the dead. And we know that Melisandre can do things at the Wall that she couldn’t do elsewhere. . .sooooo. . . . Ahhhh… I bet you’re right. I should have thought of that. ---
**Author:** ![SecretaryofEvil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@SecretaryofEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecretaryofEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/42 "2012-05-02T18:22:11Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > We know that a Red Priest can restore life to the dead. And we know that Melisandre can do things at the Wall that she couldn’t do elsewhere. . .sooooo. . . . Ugh, if I have one complaint with the books it’s the Red Priests’ resurrection abilities. I know it’s supposed to compare and counter with the Others ability to make zombies, I don’t care, it reduced dramatic tension. The Red Wedding was such a poignant scene. UnCat took away some of that. Like I said before, I hope Jon stays dead. It’s more dramatic and “realistic” that way and it adds more tension to the story by keeping with the anyone can die element that makes the series stand out. Melisandre is almost certainly going to raise him though, which frankly I think is a little cheap. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/43 "2012-05-02T18:27:54Z")
It’s not real resurrection though. Cat might as well be a zombie, Beric Dondarrion didn’t remember anything from his real life and lost more of himself each time it happened. They might be able to bring people back but it’s not like everything is fine and goes back to normal. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/44 "2012-05-02T18:31:34Z")
Does she have a motivation to bring him back? Does she want him alive? Certainly she could have “seen” the attack and prevented it or warned him. . . ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/45 "2012-05-02T18:33:50Z")
She did warn him, repeatedly. She also had a dream of him turning into a wolf and back into a man. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/46 "2012-05-02T18:40:37Z")
Good point. Am I the last to see this? [Sample from the upcoming “TheWinds of Winter”](http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/47 "2012-05-02T18:48:29Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > It’s not real resurrection though. Cat might as well be a zombie, Beric Dondarrion didn’t remember anything from his real life and lost more of himself each time it happened. They might be able to bring people back but it’s not like everything is fine and goes back to normal. It’s also not like Melisandre’s Rhllorism is the same as Thoros’s Rhllorism. There seem to be definite differences in what they can do, and remember that Stannis’s sword isn’t REAL fire. Something else is going on with Melisandre than the Red Priestess thing, I think. Admittedly, her POV chapter in DwD argues against that belief…so I don’t know what her deal really is. Which is, undoubtedly, Martin’s intention. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/48 "2012-05-21T20:54:03Z")
I think I just figured this out: From AWOIAF: > [@](#): > > \*\*The Prince That Was Promised \*\* > > _Main article: [Azor Ahai/Theories](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Azor_Ahai/Theories)_ > According to prophesy, in ancient books of [Asshai](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Asshai) from over five thousand years ago, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as _The Prince that was Promised_ to challenge the [Others](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Others). This will occur after a long summer when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world.[[2]](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Prince_That_Was_Promised#cite_note-Racok10-1) It is said that _The Prince that was Promised_, wielding Lightbringer once again, will stand against the Others and if he fails, the world fails with him. > “ “There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.” ” > > A [woods witch](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ghost_of_High_Heart) prophesied that the **Prince That Was Promised** would be born from the line of [Prince Aerys](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II) and [Princess Rhaella](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaella_Targaryen). When [Aegon V](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegon_V) heard the prophecy he arranged the marriage between the two.[[3]](http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Prince_That_Was_Promised#cite_note-Radwd23-2) So, Ice was red, wasn’t it? And Tywin had it reforged into two swords, Oathkeeper-currently with Brienne and Jaime, and what happened to the other? And Jon {was} son of Rhaegar, son of Aerys and Rhaella. Then there’s Aegon, (young Griff) also Rhaegar’s son. Two swords and two male heirs. Hmmnn. And the third head is Dany; who needs a sword when you have dragons? and does she still have the super-amazing bow she got as a wedding gift? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/49 "2012-05-21T21:46:12Z")
> [@gonzoron](#): > > and on going back and reading the passages in question, it seems all but proven. R+L=J. I don’t see any other theory that makes as much sense. Yea, on reread, I think its all but explicit that Rhaegar is Jon’s father. The TV series has plenty of time to introduce the Tower of Joy, so I don’t think its as of yet non-inclusion is really evidence for anything. (hell, at the rate GRRM writes, they may need to pad with an entire season of prequels and backstory just to avoid catching up to the books, so we may yet see the entire Baratheon rebellion on screen). ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/50 "2012-05-21T22:35:47Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > . . . \*\*Something else is going on with Melisandre than the Red Priestess thing, I think. \*\* > > Admittedly, her POV chapter in DwD argues against that belief…so I don’t know what her deal really is. Which is, undoubtedly, Martin’s intention. Could she be one of the Other/Human hybrids? Red eyes, super white skin. . . although their eyes are blue, it could just be that their blood is blue. . . ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/51 "2012-05-21T22:54:48Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, on reread, I think its all but explicit that Rhaegar is Jon’s father. > > The TV series has plenty of time to introduce the Tower of Joy, so I don’t think its as of yet non-inclusion is really evidence for anything. (hell, at the rate GRRM writes, they may need to pad with an entire season of prequels and backstory just to avoid catching up to the books, so we may yet see the entire Baratheon rebellion on screen). How could the TV series introduce the tower of joy now? Ned is dead and the other person there has not even been introduced to the book. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555/52 "2012-05-21T23:14:37Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > How could the TV series introduce the tower of joy now? Ned is dead and the other person there has not even been introduced to the book. Via flashback, having a few “prequel” episodes detail the previous rebellion, introduce Howland Reed, have Danerys or someone see it in a dream, just have another character have been with Ned at the Tower instead of Reed, have Ned have confided his secret to someone else who then tells John, have Varys know about it via his spies, etc, etc. No shortage of options. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-ice-and-fire-jon-spoilers-for-game-of-thrones/620555.md?page=2)