# Song of the South is Racist as Much for What it Doesn’t Show as What it Does **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [April 30, 2024, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966 "2024-04-30T13:40:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/61 "2024-06-12T01:35:00Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Cinderella and Snow White are much older than SotS, and they are mainstays at Disney. Those are still super popular films, and those attractions are the sort of classic the fans would not stand any changing of. You should have read the moans and bitching about the reskinning even of this ride. Why did they change Its a Bugs Life into Avengers campus? Why reskin the Tower of Terror? The California Screaming? Why did the Swiss Family treehouse change into Tarzan’s treehouse/? Submarine Voyage to Finding Nemo? etec etc- In fact pretty much ALL of DCA has been reskinned or rethemed- San Fransokyo, Pixar Pier, etc. Yes a few much loved original Walt Disney classics they dont dare to change. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/62 "2024-06-12T03:35:42Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > Rightfully so, as I have seen it since and it is pretty racist, i What was the racist parts? Most people complain about “the happy black slaves working in the fields”, but what made you say it was racist? ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/63 "2024-06-12T13:30:00Z")
There is an excellent podcast series called “[Six Degrees of Song of the South,](https://www.youmustrememberthispodcast.com/episodes/2019/11/26/songofthesoutharchive)” part of the _You Must Remember This_ podcast, which looks at the lesser-know history of early Hollywood. It’s six episodes and thoroughly digs into various aspects of the _SOTS_ story, including a full episode just on Splash Mountain, how it came to be, etc. It was released in 2019/2020, so it’s not up to date on the newest _SOTS_ or Splash Mountain developments, but for those really interested in educating yourselves on the _SOTS_ origin story and its checkered history at Disney, I highly recommend it. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/64 "2024-06-12T14:33:12Z")
It was from that podcast that I learned that the NAACP and other civil rights groups opposed the film right out of the gate. Condemnation of the film did not start with retroactive political correctness like many would like us to believe. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/65 "2024-06-12T14:41:24Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > It was from that podcast that I learned that the NAACP and other civil rights groups opposed the film right out of the gate. Yes, me as well. The podcast is heavily researched and includes contemporaneous reactions to the film at its initial release as well as subsequent re-releases. I cannot recommend it highly enough for anyone truly interested in understanding this film. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/66 "2024-06-12T19:04:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What was the racist parts? Most people complain about “the happy black slaves working in the fields”, but what made you say it was racist? I think other posters have illustrated why already, but the subservient and doting nature of the poor, struggling black characters to the rich, white plantation owners despite the clear discrimination they still are subjected to. It may not take place during slavery, but the black characters in the movie are still portrayed as little better than slaves. If you still can’t see the racism in the movie after all the replies and the criticism of the movie even in its time, then I can’t help you. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/67 "2024-06-12T19:41:53Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > It was from that podcast that I learned that the NAACP and other civil rights groups opposed the film right out of the gate. Yes, the NAACP and other civil rights groups opposed the film right out of the gate- without actually seeing the film. They assumed, like many did- that the black actors were slaves. Did the Podcast mention that? > [@Boudicca90](#): > > I think other posters have illustrated why already, but the subservient and doting nature of the poor, struggling black characters to the rich, white plantation owners despite the clear discrimination they still are subjected to. Like the subservient and doting nature of employees to their boss? ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/68 "2024-06-12T20:49:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Like the subservient and doting nature of employees to their boss? No employees should act that way to their boss, regardless of who they are. Those kinds of attitudes just lead to further exploitation, which was the new normal after slavery ended. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/69 "2024-06-13T02:29:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, the NAACP and other civil rights groups opposed the film right out of the gate- without actually seeing the film. Or they assumed that a movie made in 1946, depicting a historical period with black people working on a plantation, and primarily aimed for a white American audience would depict an inaccurate version of reality where black people were well treated and contented. And they were right. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/70 "2024-06-13T02:49:42Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > It was from that podcast that I learned that the NAACP and other civil rights groups opposed the film right out of the gate. Likewise with Gone with the Wind. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, the NAACP and other civil rights groups opposed the film right out of the gate- without actually seeing the film. They assumed, like many did- that the black actors were slaves. Hmmm. You got a cite for this? Because AFAICT, [the basic premise and nature of SotS were quite well understood and thoroughly publicized before the NAACP’s Walter White started the protest campaign.](https://ocdviewer.com/2010/12/10/song-of-the-south-nov-12-1946/) > [@](#): > > In the cinema section of the [November 18, 1946, issue of _Time_ magazine](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,777351,00.html), their reviewer wrote that “Tattered ol’ Uncle Remus, who cheerfully ‘knew his place’ in the easygoing world of late 19th Century Georgia … is a character bound to enrage all educated Negroes, and a number of damyankees.” > > Walter White, executive secretary of the NAACP, sent a telegram to the press on November 27, 1946, that said the following: “The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People recognizes in ‘Song of the South’ remarkable artistic merit in the music and in the combination of living actors and the cartoon technique. It regrets, however, that in an effort neither to offend audiences in the north or south, the production helps to perpetuate a dangerously glorified picture of slavery. Making use of the beautiful Uncle Remus folklore, ‘Song of the South’ unfortunately gives the impression of an idyllic master-slave relationship which is a distortion of the facts.” > > _Ebony_ magazine was less tempered in their criticism of the film. They wrote, in a full-page jeremiad against the film, that _Song of the South_ promoted “Uncle Tomism as the model of how Negroes should behave in white company.” Of the film’s star, they wrote, “James Baskett, who symbolically enough was taken from the _Amos ‘n’ Andy_radio show to portray Remus, is an Uncle Tom-Aunt Jemima caricature complete with all the fawning standard equipment thereof — the toothy smile, battered hat, grey beard, and a profusion of ‘dis’ and ‘dat’ talk. He lives up to his ‘lovable’ billing — certainly to Dixie audiences for whom any Negro who bows and scrapes is ‘lovable.'” I’m not seeing in that any definite implication that Walter White mistakenly believed that the action of SotS was taking place during the slavery era. Certainly, AFAICT, the Uncle Remus character is an ex-slave, and is working on a former slave plantation for a former slaveholder family, and is telling the children stories about what it was like back in the “old days” when the children (who are now his employers) used to come and listen to his tales. So yeah, I can see that being plausibly and accurately described as giving “the impression of an idyllic master-slave relationship”. Nowhere does it necessarily imply that Walter White believed that the events of the movie’s main plot were taking place before the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/71 "2024-06-13T03:29:35Z")
They just didn’t have the right doctor to white-splain it to them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/72 "2024-06-13T03:56:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And they were right. No, they were wrong- because they didnt watch it. Have they said anything after they watched it? > [@Kimstu](#): > > Hmmm. You got a cite for this? > **[Song of the South](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_the_South)** > > Song of the South is a 1946 American live-action/animated musical drama film directed by Harve Foster and Wilfred Jackson, produced by Walt Disney, and released by RKO Radio Pictures. It is based on the Uncle Remus stories as adapted by Joel Chandler Harris, and stars James Baskett as Uncle Remus in his final film role. The film takes place in the U.S. state of Georgia during the Reconstruction era, a period of American history after the end of the American Civil War and the abolition of slav... Disney historian Jim Korkis, in his 2012 book _Who’s Afraid of Song of the South_, alleged that White and June Blythe, the director of the American Council on Race Relations, were denied requests to see a treatment for the film.[[12]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_the_South#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKorkis201267%E2%80%9374-12) When the film was first released, White telegraphed major newspapers around the country with the following statement, erroneously claiming that the film depicted an [antebellum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antebellum_South) setting: > The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People recognizes in _Song of the South_ remarkable artistic merit in the music and in the combination of living actors and the cartoon technique. It regrets, however, that in an effort neither to offend audiences in the north or south, the production helps to perpetuate a dangerously glorified picture of slavery. Making use of the beautiful Uncle Remus folklore, _Song of the South_ unfortunately gives the impression of an idyllic master–slave relationship which is a distortion of the facts.[[14]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_the_South#cite_note-Cohen-14) White had not seen the film; his statement was allegedly based on memos he received from two NAACP staff members, Norma Jensen and Hope Spingarn, who attended a press screening on November 20, 1946. Jensen had written the film was “so artistically beautiful that it is difficult to be provoked over the clichés,” **Making use of the beautiful Uncle Remus folklore, _Song of the South_ unfortunately gives the impression of an idyllic master–slave relationship which is a distortion of the facts.** **White had not seen the film;** ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/73 "2024-06-13T04:39:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Like the subservient and doting nature of employees to their boss? Do you act subservient and doting towards your boss‽ I sure as hell never did. Nor did anyone who ever reported to me. That would have been weird and inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/74 "2024-06-13T04:46:48Z")
Moderating: > [@Chingon](#): > > They just didn’t have the right doctor to white-splain it to them. You are now banned from this thread. Given the prior moderation: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Moderating: > > > [@Chingon](#): > > > > Black people back then weren’t lucky enough to have @DrDeth tell them how happy they should have been. > > That’ll be a warning for insulting other posters outside the pit. And I’m tossing this to mod loop because you’ve been warned about this before You really shouldn’t have been attacking DrDeth. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/75 "2024-06-13T04:47:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So yeah, I can see that being plausibly and accurately described as giving “the impression of an idyllic master-slave relationship”. Nowhere does it necessarily imply that Walter White believed that the events of the movie’s main plot were taking place before the Civil War. Yeah, looks like a pretty accurate complaint to me. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/76 "2024-06-13T06:10:24Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Do you act subservient and doting towards your boss‽ Nice to see a fellow interrobang user. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/77 "2024-06-13T11:52:02Z")
I found it on my phone’s keyboard, and this seemed like the perfect use-case. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyEcks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnnyecks/32/18197_2.png) [@JohnnyEcks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyEcks)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/78 "2024-06-13T12:49:00Z")
For what it’s worth, the original script was set in the Antebellum, and later drafts moved the time period to reconstruction. Even at the time, many of the writers realized the issues, but Disney was unwilling to make a more nuanced and progressive film. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/79 "2024-06-13T15:33:46Z")
For anybody who doesn’t know but wants to form their own opinion, there are copies available on [archive.org](http://archive.org). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966/80 "2024-06-13T21:29:41Z")
It seems to me that there are two bars? One is when a work is reflective of the (racist, sexist, whatever) norms of its time. That of course can bad but it also is not reasonable to require a work to reflect future values. The problem there is that the society of its time was racist/sexist/etc. … I think it is different when work is created in a time of changing values specifically incorporating tropes that reinforce the regressive norms that some in power felt were under attack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-of-the-south-is-racist-as-much-for-what-it-doesn-t-show-as-what-it-does/1000966.md?page=5)