# Song royalties questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 11, 2020, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568 "2020-05-11T04:38:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/21 "2020-05-11T16:20:01Z")
In the novel and film adaption of About A Boy by Nick Hornby, the main character is a thirtysomething bachelor who lives a comfortable life without working because of the royalties on a novelty Christmas song his father wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/22 "2020-05-11T16:52:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve heard that Gene Roddenberry wrote lyrics for the Star Trek theme song, as a way to prevent the studios from totally shafting him: Writing lyrics gives him an author credit for the song, and so, even when it’s performed without the lyrics (which is almost always), he’s due a royalty. Considering he died in 1991, I’m pretty sure he’s not receiving anything. His estate on the other hand does. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/23 "2020-05-11T17:15:20Z")
Would he get money each time that song is played on the radio? Yes. I assume also if played on Pandora, but won’t be looking that up. How much? According to [Quora](https://www.quora.com/How-much-are-music-artists-paid-in-Royalties-for-each-song-played-on-radio), up to 12 cents. Depends on size of audience. Would he get more money if that song is played in a movie or TV show? Yes. I’m glad you didn’t ask how much because it varies and is really complicated for TV. If that song is now the theme song for a Netflix series, would he get money each time a subscriber played an episode from that series? Not easily answered with Google. If I had to guess, I’d guess it was tiered, rather than per view. Now assume that Sonny was young and stupid and signed a contract that did not give him rights to the song, would he get nothing for any of the above? Sure. If you sign your rights away, you sign your rights away. > [@bob\_2](#): > > Noddy Holder has referred to the song, “_Merry Xmas Everybody_” as his pension scheme, reflecting its continuing popularity and the royalties it generates.It has been estimated that the song generates £500,000 of royalties per year. > > I couldn’t find out what Jem Finer and Shane MacGowan make from “_Fairytale of New York_”, but it “is the most-played Christmas song of the 21st century” > > It seems that writing a hit Christmas song is the key to longevity. Goodness knows how much Irving Berlin made from _“White Christmas”._ You just reminded me of the Colbert Christmas Special and the wonderful Another Christmas Song. [Lyrics](https://genius.com/Stephen-colbert-another-christmas-song-lyrics) include: Make it a part of your holiday canon Make it the heart of my retirement plannin’ [Song.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc9bPycuEc4) ---
**Author:** ![vonespy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vonespy/32/6204_2.png) [@vonespy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vonespy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/24 "2020-05-11T17:58:04Z")
There is also a revenue stream from the licensing agencies like ASCAP and BMI. Radio stations that played music had to purchase licenses to play commercial music, and that big pile of money was distributed through some complex formula that looked at popularity, markets, etc. Even bars and other locations that have jukeboxes, play music overhead or even use commercial music on hold are supposed to buy licenses. I’m sure that’s one of the reasons why music on hold is some generic junk instead of “The Time Warp” or whatever. I don’t think the ASCAP / BMI royalties were anything spectacular unless you were The Rolling Stones or similar, but it is probably enough to keep A Flock of Seagulls in hair products. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/25 "2020-05-11T18:15:15Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Related (perhaps) question. Can I help my favorite music people make money by running my pandora station 24/7 even when I’m not home? Pandora’s software checks to see if the mouse has been moved or the keyboard has been used. After a while (an hour? I don’t remember), the music stops and a message appears, something like, “We don’t like playing to an empty room. Is anyone there?” ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/26 "2020-05-11T18:16:54Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Pandora’s software checks to see if the mouse has been moved or the keyboard has been used. After a while (an hour? I don’t remember), the music stops and a message appears, something like, “We don’t like playing to an empty room. > Is anyone there?” Mine doesn’t. I can turn it on in the morning (via Sonos) and it will play all day if I don’t stop it. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/27 "2020-05-11T18:29:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve heard that Gene Roddenberry wrote lyrics for the Star Trek theme song, as a way to prevent the studios from totally shafting him: Writing lyrics gives him an author credit for the song, and so, even when it’s performed without the lyrics (which is almost always), he’s due a royalty. Alexander Courage looks on it as an underhanded ploy to cut into his royalties. He had to split half the royalties with Roddenberry and was not happy to discover it ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/28 "2020-05-11T18:32:52Z")
> [@vonespy](#): > > There is also a revenue stream from the licensing agencies like ASCAP and BMI. Radio stations that played music had to purchase licenses to play commercial music, and that big pile of money was distributed through some complex formula that looked at popularity, markets, etc. Even bars and other locations that have jukeboxes, play music overhead or even use commercial music on hold are supposed to buy licenses. I’m sure that’s one of the reasons why music on hold is some generic junk instead of “The Time Warp” or whatever. > > I don’t think the ASCAP / BMI royalties were anything spectacular unless you were The Rolling Stones or similar, but it is probably enough to keep A Flock of Seagulls in hair products. I’m pretty sure that money from ASCAP/BMI is the \*largest \*source of income for most of the writers/composers that people are discussing here. Direct income from record sales dies off after the song’s initial release, and probably ends up as a rather small fraction of the total. But for moderately popular songs, income from public performances keeps coming year after year, sometimes for decades. Licensing for commercials, theme songs, and soundtracks, which is arranged separately between the production companies and the publishing companies, can also be substantial, but on average is probably not as big a percentage. ---
**Author:** ![staili](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c57346/32.png) [@staili](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/staili)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/29 "2020-05-12T03:22:42Z")
I believe commasense is correct that ASCAP/BMI (and other performing rights organizations) are the key to song royalties, aside from ones from actual sales or from use in movies/tv/etc. The income from radio play and other public performance can be huge, and that’s what ASCAP/BMI are paid to keep track of. In the US, I believe that the songwriter gets royalties for radio play, but the artist does not. And the original singer gets nothing if there is a later remake or cover version. Except for superstar artists, the person who makes the most money in the long run is the songwriter. That’s why Elvis’s manager wanted Elvis to be made a co-writer on several of his hits. I don’t know if this request was common in Elvis’s heyday, but if so, it’s fallen by the wayside. Celine Dion is the only artist I know of who has asked for songwriting royalties (she hasn’t asked for songwriting credit, just the royalties) for songs she did not write in the past twenty or thirty years. There are also singers who change one word and end up being a co-writer, and they get songwriting royalties as well. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/30 "2020-05-12T03:30:07Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Noddy Holder has referred to the song, “_Merry Xmas Everybody_” as his pension scheme, reflecting its continuing popularity and the royalties it generates.It has been estimated that the song generates £500,000 of royalties per year. > > I couldn’t find out what Jem Finer and Shane MacGowan make from “_Fairytale of New York_”, but it “is the most-played Christmas song of the 21st century” > > It seems that writing a hit Christmas song is the key to longevity. Goodness knows how much Irving Berlin made from _“White Christmas”._ The author of “All I Want For Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth” copyrighted it before he recorded it as a novelty gift for his nieces and nephews, and then it became a hit a few years later when a copy ended up at a radio station and the DJ played it. He never thought he’d make a penny from it, nor was that his intent. > **[Christmas Songs in the Public Domain](https://support.easysong.com/hc/en-us/articles/360047491414-Christmas-Songs-in-the-Public-Domain)** > > Have a question this article doesn't answer? > Give us a call at 1-800-360-5192 or send us an email for a free consultation with one of our Licensing experts! >   > > >   > Did you know that eleven of the to... > **[All I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_I_Want_for_Christmas_Is_My_Two_Front_Teeth)** > > "All I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth" is a novelty Christmas song written in 1944 by Donald Yetter Gardner while teaching music at public schools in Smithtown, New York. He asked his second grade class what they wanted for Christmas, and noticed that almost all of the students had at least one front tooth missing as they answered in a lisp. Gardner wrote the song in 30 minutes. In a 1995 interview, Gardner said, "I was amazed at the way that silly little song was picked up by The song... ---
**Author:** ![J-P\_L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/j-p_l/32/3156_2.png) [@J-P\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J-P_L)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/31 "2020-05-12T03:32:44Z")
Dolly Parton stated during the recent special about her 50th anniversary of professional live that Elvis wanted to record “I will always love you” prior to Whitney Houston doing it but Elvis wanted 50% of the rights. She refused. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/32 "2020-05-12T05:22:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve heard that Gene Roddenberry wrote lyrics for the Star Trek theme song, as a way to prevent the studios from totally shafting him: Writing lyrics gives him an author credit for the song, and so, even when it’s performed without the lyrics (which is almost always), he’s due a royalty. Actually it was a way to get free money by shafting Alexander Courage. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/33 "2020-05-12T05:48:05Z")
This explains why many singers demand songwriting credit even when they don’t write a note or pen a lyric. Apparently it’s [very common in the industry](https://www.heraldextra.com/lifestyles/music-artists-taking-credit-for-songs-they-didn-t-write/article_b6c37993-6f64-5b8d-a843-3c325c176a1d.html), however dishonest it may be. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/34 "2020-05-12T17:20:00Z")
> [@J-P\_L](#): > > Dolly Parton stated during the recent special about her 50th anniversary of professional live that Elvis wanted to record “I will always love you” prior to Whitney Houston doing it but Elvis wanted 50% of the rights. > > She refused. I highly doubt Elvis was involved in any part of the negotiation of the rights, money, etc. That would have all been done by Col. Parker, his manager. Parker robbed Elvis, while he was alive. After Elvis’ death, Priscilla took over management of the estate and grew it to be substantially greater than it ever was while Elvis was alive. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/35 "2020-05-12T18:05:15Z")
> [@J-P\_L](#): > > Dolly Parton stated during the recent special about her 50th anniversary of professional live that Elvis wanted to record “I will always love you” prior to Whitney Houston doing it but Elvis wanted 50% of the rights. > > She refused. > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > I highly doubt Elvis was involved in any part of the negotiation of the rights, money, etc. That would have all been done by Col. Parker, his manager. Parker robbed Elvis, while he was alive. After Elvis’ death, Priscilla took over management of the estate and grew it to be substantially greater than it ever was while Elvis was alive. Whether it was the colonel or Elvis, apparently that was his standard operating procedure. He did it for all his songs. “Let Elvis record your song and you’ll be swimming in cash” was a motivational concept for unknown songwriters, but I guess if someone already had a decent career it was not that appealing. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/36 "2020-05-12T18:13:06Z")
I recall an interview with the Songwriter for Edward Bear in the early 90’s and he was still making decent money from “you, Me, and Mexico” and especially from “Last Song”. I guess in those days everything was still paper, he said it was interesting getting for example, a cheque for a few dollars from some country like Netherlands - knowing your work is being listened to all over the world. He didn’t say what he was making, but suggested it was a comfortable amount. Those songs still pop up on Golden radio, so still paying a bit. But that’s another anomal. Baby boomers still listen to a lot of classic rock. I wonder if that genre is disproportionate in the dollars and longevity of the money stream… Plus Christmas, and anything that makes it into show biz. I vaguely recall that the guy who wrote the Cheers song was making decent money for a while. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/37 "2020-05-12T18:15:02Z")
Also point out that Michael Jackson’s excess riches included decent income from the Beatles Catalog. Some wise-ass once remarked that every time the Beatles earn a dollar, Jackson (now his estate) gets 50 cents, Yoko gets 25 cents, and McCartney gets 25 cents. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/38 "2020-05-12T18:29:40Z")
ASCAP and BMI also get money from bars, restaurants , etc. that play recorded music. I read they are pretty strict about enforcing their payments. There was a pretty big change in copyright law in the US in 2018, part of the reason for the change was streaming of music. [Music Modernization Act - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Modernization_Act) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/39 "2020-05-12T18:29:35Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Also point out that Michael Jackson’s excess riches included decent income from the Beatles Catalog. Some wise-ass once remarked that every time the Beatles earn a dollar, Jackson (now his estate) gets 50 cents, Yoko gets 25 cents, and McCartney gets 25 cents. That joke is way outdated. Sony, which became half-owner in 1995, bought up the remaining share of the catalog in 2016. McCartney sued Sony and they reached a settlement in 2017. The terms have never been announced. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568/40 "2020-05-12T18:31:18Z")
ASCAP and BMI also get money from bars, restaurants , etc. that play recorded music. I read they are pretty strict about enforcing their payments. There was a pretty big change in copyright law in the US in 2018, part of the reason for the change was streaming of music. [Music Modernization Act - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Modernization_Act) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-royalties-questions/853568.md?page=3)