# Song Title: Lyric is "It's like rain-n-n-n on your wedding day..." **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 25, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429 "2010-01-25T22:12:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/41 "2010-01-26T15:17:35Z")
> [@lost4life](#): > > Was she being ironic when she titled a song Ironic which does not contain any irony? Discuss amongst yourselves. I think that finding 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife is pretty ironic. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/42 "2010-01-26T15:24:21Z")
Is it ironic that people criticize the song for not having ironic situations when many of the situations fit the third definition of irony (incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result). Really you should be saying “Isn’t it ironic that the song doesn’t have examples meeting the two most common definitions of irony but does illustrate the third definition”. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/43 "2010-01-26T15:28:25Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Another fun part of the Dope is that while easily researched questions do get answered, they also get mocked mercilessly. It’s not dickitude, it’s taking the piss. Ironically, some of the responses have me laughing till I pee; thereby _literally_ taking the piss. Ironic, doncha think? ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/44 "2010-01-26T15:29:38Z")
Buck Murdock: Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/45 "2010-01-26T16:15:51Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I think that finding 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife is pretty ironic. No, it’s just bad luck - finding 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife, giving up, and then finding out the next day _that a spoon would have done_, is ironic. (I am not the original author of the above thought - it was a stand up comic I saw once, possibly Ed Byrne) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/46 "2010-01-26T16:25:33Z")
Baldrick : Oh sir, you’re not going to become a highwayman, are you? Blackadder : No I’m auditioning for the part of Arnold the bat in Sheridan’s new comedy. Baldrick : Oh that’s alright then. Blackadder : Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is? Baldrick : Yeah! It’s like goldy and bronzy, only it’s made of iron. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/47 "2010-01-26T16:37:35Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > Is it ironic that people criticize the song for not having ironic situations when many of the situations fit the third definition of irony (incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result). > > Really you should be saying “Isn’t it ironic that the song doesn’t have examples meeting the two most common definitions of irony but does illustrate the third definition”. I have to disagree strongly on that point. Your third definition specifically states that there must be _incongruity_ between the actual and expected results. Not merely a difference, but an incongruity. One could debate exactly what “incongruity” should mean in this context, but it clearly means more than just an unfulfilled expectation. Consider the following usage note from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ironic): The words ironic, irony, and ironically are sometimes used of events and circumstances that might better be described as simply “coincidental” or “improbable,” in that they suggest no particular lessons about human vanity or folly. Thus 78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of \*ironically \*in the sentence _In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York_. Some Panelists noted that this particular usage might be acceptable if Susie had in fact moved to California in order to find a husband, in which case the story could be taken as exemplifying the folly of supposing that we can know what fate has in store for us. By contrast, 73 percent accepted the sentence _Ironically, even as the government was fulminating against American policy, American jeans and videocassettes were the hottest items in the stalls of the market_, where the incongruity can be seen as an example of human inconsistency. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/48 "2010-01-26T17:08:00Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I have to disagree strongly on that point. Your third definition specifically states that there must be _incongruity_ between the actual and expected results. Not merely a difference, but an incongruity. One could debate exactly what “incongruity” should mean in this context, but it clearly means more than just an unfulfilled expectation. > > Consider the following usage note from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ironic): > > The words ironic, irony, and ironically are sometimes used of events and circumstances that might better be described as simply “coincidental” or “improbable,” in that they suggest no particular lessons about human vanity or folly. Thus 78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of \*ironically \*in the sentence _In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York_. Some Panelists noted that this particular usage might be acceptable if Susie had in fact moved to California in order to find a husband, in which case the story could be taken as exemplifying the folly of supposing that we can know what fate has in store for us. By contrast, 73 percent accepted the sentence _Ironically, even as the government was fulminating against American policy, American jeans and videocassettes were the hottest items in the stalls of the market_, where the incongruity can be seen as an example of human inconsistency. One way of looking at it, in terms of the song, is when two independent and unusual events happen to occur at the same time, producing a unique result. For example, “a traffic jam when you’re already late” is ironic if you are usually not late, nor does the road you travel to work normally experience traffic jams, and only the combination of the two is capable of making you late for work. By my reckoning, three situations in the song are legitimately ironic. The one above, a person who is afraid of flying crashing on his first flight, and the spoon/knife thing. Assuming you are in an environment where you don’t expect to find a great deal of cutlery at all, it’s EXTREMELY ironic to come across ten thousand spoons when you are searching for just one knife. Imagine that happening in a normal domestic kitchen! Clearly ironic. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/49 "2010-01-26T17:25:11Z")
Since there someone disagreed strongly to my point, I’ll change it to : “Isn’t it ironic that the song doesn’t have examples meeting the two most common definitions of irony but does illustrate the third definition, assuming you are using definition 1b of congruous from [www.merriam-webster.com](http://www.merriam-webster.com).” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/50 "2010-01-26T18:07:52Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The most ironic thing about the song being that apparently, Ms Morissette does not know the meaning of the word _ironic_. My understanding is that she does indeed know the meaning, and that the song is a take-off of folks who don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/51 "2010-01-26T19:15:16Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > My understanding is that she does indeed know the meaning, and that the song is a take-off of folks who don’t. Ah, meta-irony! I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/52 "2010-01-26T19:38:41Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > My understanding is that she does indeed know the meaning, and that the song is a take-off of folks who don’t. Actually, Morissette describes herself as a “malapropism queen” and alleges that the song was lighthearted and not to be taken too seriously. [“Ironic” linguistic usage disputes in Wikipedia.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_%28song%29#Linguistic_usage_disputes) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/53 "2010-01-26T20:07:15Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Actually, Morissette describes herself as a “malapropism queen” and alleges that the song was lighthearted and not to be taken too seriously. > > [“Ironic” linguistic usage disputes in Wikipedia.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_%28song%29#Linguistic_usage_disputes) I see. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/54 "2010-01-26T20:38:36Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I have to disagree strongly on that point. Your third definition specifically states that there must be _incongruity_ between the actual and expected results. Not merely a difference, but an incongruity. One could debate exactly what “incongruity” should mean in this context, but it clearly means more than just an unfulfilled expectation. > > Consider the following usage note from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ironic): > > The words ironic, irony, and ironically are sometimes used of events and circumstances that might better be described as simply “coincidental” or “improbable,” in that they suggest no particular lessons about human vanity or folly. Thus 78 percent of the Usage Panel rejects the use of \*ironically \*in the sentence _In 1969 Susie moved from Ithaca to California where she met her husband-to-be, who, ironically, also came from upstate New York_. Some Panelists noted that this particular usage might be acceptable if Susie had in fact moved to California in order to find a husband, in which case the story could be taken as exemplifying the folly of supposing that we can know what fate has in store for us. By contrast, 73 percent accepted the sentence _Ironically, even as the government was fulminating against American policy, American jeans and videocassettes were the hottest items in the stalls of the market_, where the incongruity can be seen as an example of human inconsistency. “The Straight Dope: Overthinking Things Since 1973 (You Wouldn’t Believe How Long We Can Keep This Up)” ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/55 "2010-01-26T20:45:43Z")
“Spoons” should be the standard unit of irony. Like, if “Ironic” sets the baseline at 10,000 spoons, then “The Gift of the Magi” is 8.4 kilospoons ironic. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/56 "2010-01-26T21:13:08Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > One way of looking at it, in terms of the song, is when two independent and unusual events happen to occur at the same time, producing a unique result. > > For example, “a traffic jam when you’re already late” is ironic if you are usually not late, nor does the road you travel to work normally experience traffic jams, and only the combination of the two is capable of making you late for work. No, that’s not ironic. Unfortunate, yes. A combination of unfortunate events? Certainly. Ironic? No. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/57 "2010-01-26T21:17:36Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > Since there someone disagreed strongly to my point, I’ll change it to : > > “Isn’t it ironic that the song doesn’t have examples meeting the two most common definitions of irony but does illustrate the third definition, assuming you are using definition 1b of congruous from [www.merriam-webster.com](http://www.merriam-webster.com).” No, because definition 1b says “marked or enhanced by harmonious agreement among constituent elements.” There’s nothing either congruous or incongruous about finding a bunch of spoons when you need a knife. Nor is there anything congruous or incongruous about finding a fly in your chardonnay. These situations are unfortunate, but by no means ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/58 "2010-01-26T21:35:11Z")
> [@Ichbin\_Dubist](#): > > “Spoons” should be the standard unit of irony. Like, if “Ironic” sets the baseline at 10,000 spoons, then “The Gift of the Magi” is 8.4 kilospoons ironic. You’ve severely underated the story. If the spoon situation in “Ironic” is 10 kilospoons, most of O. Henry’s stories would be in the 500-800 megaspoon range. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/59 "2010-01-26T21:37:24Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > No, because definition 1b says “marked or enhanced by harmonious agreement among constituent elements.” There’s nothing either congruous or incongruous about finding a bunch of spoons when you need a knife. Nor is there anything congruous or incongruous about finding a fly in your chardonnay. These situations are unfortunate, but by no means ironic. Definition 1b says “conforming to the circumstances or requirements of a situation”. You copied definition 2. I would say a requirement of my chardonnay is to be fly-free. A requirement of a good wedding day would be no rain. A requirement to fill your need for a knife is to find a knife, not a bunch of spoons. I don’t know if any of these was what was meant. But, ignoring the fact that words in English have multiple meanings doesn’t serve well when pointing out that others used words incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429/60 "2010-01-26T21:57:50Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > Definition 1b says “conforming to the circumstances or requirements of a situation”. You copied definition 2. You’re right. I did make that mistake. Having said that, I think it’s clear that this is not manner in which the words “congruous” or “incongruous” were meant to be applied in the aforementioned dictionary entry for “ironic.” If it were, we would have to conclude that ANY situation in which someone is disappointed must necessarily be considered ironic. As I said earlier, “One could debate exactly what ‘incongruity’ should mean in this context, but it clearly means more than just an unfulfilled expectation.” > [@](#): > > I don’t know if any of these was what was meant. But, ignoring the fact that words in English have multiple meanings doesn’t serve well when pointing out that others used words incorrectly. Words do have multiple meanings, but that doesn’t mean that you can use multiple definitions of a word interchangeably. For example, are you a stable boy? The word “stable” has multiple definitions, but when interpreting that statement, you don’t get to pick whichever definition suits your fancy. So it is with the word “incongruous.” The word CAN be used to describe an unfulfilled requirement, but it would be foolish to insist that this is what’s meant when attempting to define irony. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/song-title-lyric-is-its-like-rain-n-n-n-on-your-wedding-day/526429.md?page=4)