# Songs: Lyrics and music by two different people **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683 "2009-05-16T21:59:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/21 "2009-05-18T01:20:29Z")
More, while I’m on a roll - Leonard Bernstein wrote the music and libretto for Trouble in Tahiti, and he wrote the lyrics for the song ‘Bon Voyage’ in the midst of ‘Candide’. R. Murray Shafer has written the libretti for practically every piece of vocal music he has ever written. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/22 "2009-05-18T02:54:35Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > In fact, I can’t think of a single classical composer who wrote his/her own words. Doesn’t mean there’s never been one, of course. Can anyone think of one? I’m really curious. Gustav Mahler, at least for his _Songs of a Wayfarer_ I think Richard Strauss wrote his own libretto for _Salome_. Did J.S. Bach write the words for any of his own cantatas? ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/23 "2009-05-18T03:07:41Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Another example from the rock world would be the Grateful Dead’s Jerry Garcia writing music to go with with Robert Hunter’s lyrics, and Bob Weir writing music for (sometimes) Hunter’s and (other times) John Barlow’s lyrics. > > From the modern classical world, John Adams has written the music for operas with libretti (is that the right plural?) by Peter Sellars (Dr. Atomic) and Alice Goodman (Nixon in China). Lucas Foss has set texts by many, many poets and prose authors to music (Auden, Kafka, Housman, Nietzche, in Time Cycle, Wallace Stevens, Shakespeare, Yeats, Goethe, in other compositions, and various Biblical texts). Steve Reich’s Tehillim sets some of the Psalms to (incredibly beautiful) music. The list is too long to carry on here. > > In fact, I can’t think of a single classical composer who wrote his/her own words. Doesn’t mean there’s never been one, of course. Can anyone think of one? I’m really curious. The Grateful Dead’s primary lyricist Robert Hunter also collaborated with Bob Dylan on several joint effort (heh) songs over the years… ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/24 "2009-05-18T03:52:13Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Yeah, Richard Wagner is the first one who comes to mind. Ruggero Leoncavallo wrote his own libretto for Pagliacci. > Arrigo Boito wrote both the libretto and the music for Mefistofole. > It’s not very common, but it isn’t unheard of, either. Brain freeze. I knew about Wagner. Didn’t know about Leoncavallo, though, so thanks, and I don’t know Boito’s music, so that’s something for me to listen to. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/25 "2009-05-18T12:32:03Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Look how Allan Sherman and Weird Al Yankovic can take well known songs and write new lyrics to fit. AND Gerald Alessandrini of Forbidden Broadway fame. Though writing parodies is easier, cause you have the original lyrics to work with, and keeping as much of the original lyrics as possible makes it much more funny. Andrew Lloyd Webber set T.S. Eliot’s Book of Practical CATS poems to music. Made a few bucks doing it. People who translate songs not only have to keep the music intact, but they have to keep the idea right, the tone right and get the new language’s lyrics to rhyme. They make a few bucks doing it. It’s probably the hardest type of lyric writing there is. A poorly translated lyric ends up sounding like shit. Yeah, Korean Evita , I’m talkng about you. When the producers wanted lyrics to the opening theme of “A Charlie Brown Christmas,” Lee Mendelson wrote some down on the back of an envelope. It took him 10 minutes, and he made a few bucks off of it. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/26 "2009-05-18T12:50:23Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > When the producers wanted lyrics to the opening theme of “A Charlie Brown Christmas,” Lee Mendelson wrote some down on the back of an envelope. It took him 10 minutes, and he made a few bucks off of it. Gene Roddenberry wrote some (God-awful) lyrics to the theme from Star Trek and his estate gets royalties whenever the song is played. Robert Altman complained that his son – who is credited for the lyrics for “Suicide is Painless” – made more money from **M_A_S\*H** than he did. Every episode of the TV show played the song. And not only did Andrew Lloyd Weber make money from **Cats** , but the T.S. Eliot estate did, too. It’s by far their biggest cash cow. There’s also “All I Really Want” by Sheryl Crow, which made a fortune for the poet who wrote the lyrics (Crow set them to music after reading them). ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/27 "2009-05-18T12:56:24Z")
I will point out that the people who write music & lyrics for theatre productions get “Grand Rights” every time the song is performed. For most shows that it eight times a week. And if a show is playing in 10 or 20 different venuses, the amount can be staggering. These rights are non-transferable and have to be paid or the producers are in a mess of legal trouble. It’s one of life’s easiest ways of getting extremely wealthy, provided you can write a show, get it produced, and have it be a hit. yes, translators also get them. At one point the grand rights to Phantom were paying Andrew Lloyd Webber $5,000 a day. And Benny Andersson & Bjorn Ulvaeus are making more from Mamma Mia! then they did from ABBA. Write a few tunes and you can make a truckload of cash. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/28 "2009-05-18T13:09:36Z")
I think it’s also a cultural thing - American rock and pop is only considered “authentic” if it’s sung by the people who write the music and lyrics. Things are a bit different here in Israel. While we have several singer-songwirters, many classic rock and pop acts performed songs written by professional songwriters and lyricists. Several prominent writers and poets have dabbled in writing lyrics for popular music, and musicians often adopt Hebrew poetry into modern songs. For instance, take this early 1980’s Arik Einstein hit, with lyrics by H. N. Bialik, Israel’s national poet: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GfeFcEQzo0) ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/29 "2009-05-18T14:21:04Z")
I’ve always felt that the lyricists in a lyrics / music pact are succesful mooches. Case in point: Bernie Taupin. I’ve never paid much attention to the lyrics Elton John sings - the beautiful melodies, hooks, harmonies and the superb instrumentation by him, Johnstone, Olsson and Murray (the classic line-up form the '70’s) is what grabs my attention. It’s 95% of what EJ’s music is about. Without Taupin, the EJ Band would’ve soldiered on just as well. Taupin became a mega-millionaire, regardless. Maybe it’s because I’m a better writer than a composer, but I feel most anyone with a knack for creative writing (teeming millions) can hack up solid song lyrics, while composing quality original music is a rare gift brought to bloom by very hard work. There are thousands of classic songs with tautologic, nonsense lyrics. How many classic songs have lousy music but quality lyrics? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/30 "2009-05-18T16:20:58Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think it’s also a cultural thing - American rock and pop is only considered “authentic” if it’s sung by the people who write the music and lyrics. I think it’s also an economics thing - from what I understand, many rock/pop stars make a significant portion of their income from songwriting credits. [QUOTE=Toxylon] I’ve always felt that the lyricists in a lyrics / music pact are succesful mooches. [/QUOTE] In many cases, yes—W. S. Gilbert being a notable exception. Opera librettists don’t get one-tenth the fame and praise that opera composers get. ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/31 "2009-05-18T22:08:05Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Gene Roddenberry wrote some (God-awful) lyrics to the theme from Star Trek and his estate gets royalties whenever the song is played. > > Robert Altman complained that his son – who is credited for the lyrics for “Suicide is Painless” – made more money from **M_A_S\*H** than he did. Every episode of the TV show played the song. This has always bothered me. Why do the lyrics writers get royalties when just the music is performed? Especially in Roddenberry’s case; he wrote the lyrics after the fact, and the original pre-lyrics recording continued to be used on the TV show, but suddenly Roddenberry was entitled to royalties. Something’s not right. \*\*\* Ponder ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/32 "2009-05-18T22:38:52Z")
All good stuff - **Le Ministre** what can you tell us about Wagner’s correspondence with his librettist? (Is that the correct word and spelling?) One thing I haven’t seen mentioned: collaborators feed off and inspire each other. The division may be as black/white as lyrics/ music but is often much blurrier - but songs are about communication so including that in the process can often help. My $.02 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/33 "2009-05-19T01:48:17Z")
> [@Ponderoid](#): > > This has always bothered me. Why do the lyrics writers get royalties when just the music is performed? Especially in Roddenberry’s case; he wrote the lyrics after the fact, and the original pre-lyrics recording continued to be used on the TV show, but suddenly Roddenberry was entitled to royalties. Something’s not right. > > \*\*\* Ponder Royalties are given out by the two major publishing licensing bodies, ASCAP and BMI. All they do is come up with the number of times a song is played and then send an appropriate amount of money to the names on record for that song. They don’t know whether the version is an instrumental or not, they don’t know who wrote the lyrics and who wrote the music or whether it was a collaboration, they don’t know anything except for the mechanical crediting of an account. They most certainly don’t want to know, either, because they figure their job is too difficult already without complicating it this way. It’s possible that on the other end a contract might be written to split this out, but who would be stupid enough to sign a contract like that in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683/34 "2009-05-19T02:22:11Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Another example that comes to mind is that of Bernie Taupin and Elton John. Taupin used to write the lyrics at his residence and mail them to Elton, who composed the music. That’s where the name of the tribute album _Two Rooms_ comes from. Today, Taupin still writes the lyrics and nowadays he emails them to Elton. I heard an interview with Taupin and he described it the other way around: he had to write lyrics to Elton’s melodies, no matter how awkward they were by conventional song standards, which explains some of the more, er, fanciful lyrics. But back then they worked with mailed-cassette tunes and faxed lyrics, so it may be different now. Funny how Elton got all the credit for “Goodbye England’s Rose” when all he had to do was play and sing a tune he’d written years before. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songs-lyrics-and-music-by-two-different-people/496683.md?page=1)