# Songwriters in their 30's... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 16, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740 "2011-06-16T20:50:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rikc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c57346/32.png) [@rikc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rikc)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/21 "2011-06-17T09:50:23Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > I don’t quite get the premise of this thread. Why should it be exceptional for songwriters to write their best work after they have matured? Why, of all ages, single out the third life decade? Take two of the iconic ones, Bob Dylan and Neil Young. You could name at least one great album as well as one piece of shit for each decade of their writing/recording career. Yes, Dylan wrote and recorded “Blood On The Tracks” in his thirties, and Young “Rust Never Sleeps”, so they might qualify for this thread. But you could play that game with each decade. For me, it doesn’t make sense. Maybe \*\*samjones \*\*can come back and explain it. I definitely see your point, but if we’re going to talk about artists who wrote their best work after “maturing,” the thread becomes a little less interesting IMO. People would just end up rattling off any number of All Time Greats who remained excellent songwriters for their entire life, there wouldn’t be many surprises. Confining your picks to artists in their 30’s means that the artist needs to push through any early success they might have had and figure out their career now that they may not be recording hits anymore; They need to adapt and improve quickly to make the cut (I’m sure there are a million exceptions to that scenario, but I think it’s a pretty common one for popular songwriters in their 30’s, especially when you get closer to present day). It also means you need to think about the high points of an artist’s career rather than look at it on the whole. Personally I’m trying to think of artists who topped their 20-something selves rather than remain on-par, so I need to think “was Joni Mitchell better before or after Court and Spark?” or “Were XTC’s best albums before or after Andy Partridge’s breakdown?” It’s fun. I suppose it’s not an airtight premise, but I can dig it. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/22 "2011-06-17T10:30:12Z")
> [@rikc](#): > > People would just end up rattling off any number of All Time Greats who remained excellent songwriters for their entire life, there wouldn’t be many surprises. Rattle off a few. Surprise me. So - I guess I would have to begrudgingly admit that Bruce Springsteen wrote some great stuff in his 30s, although I prefer his work from his 20s (the 70s) much more. Bob Dylan and Neil Young? Their best stuff was written in their 20s. There were a couple of memorable songs from their 30s but nothing that compares. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/23 "2011-06-17T10:51:46Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > Rattle off a few. Surprise me. Bob Dylan Neil Young (I get it, you don’t think so. I and many others do) Elvis Costello Richard Thompson Lou Reed Joni Mitchell ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/24 "2011-06-17T10:52:27Z")
Neil Young’s best stuff was written in his 40s, the stuff from Freedom through to Broken Arrow. Not specifically listing songwriters who were good in their 30s, but ones who remained good - Johnny Cash Emmylou Harris (her best stuff has been written since she turned 50) Richard Thompson Will Oldham Robert Smith (The Cure) Wayne Hussey (The Mission, their finest album “Carved In Sand” came out when he was 32) I could list literally hundreds more. ---
**Author:** ![rikc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c57346/32.png) [@rikc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rikc)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/25 "2011-06-17T10:59:30Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > Rattle off a few. Surprise me. I’m not really sure if I understand what you’re saying here? I was saying I liked the premise of your thread, not really sure where this comes from. Maybe I’m reading you wrong. I’ve already posted three musicians, two of which I doubt will achieve the All Time Greats status I’m talking about (I honestly think Beck could make it, but who knows). If you aren’t surprised then oh well, I guess. I mentioned them in my other post but I’m gonna add two more artists to my personal list after thinking on it for a while longer: **Joni Mitchell** , even though her most popular work was recorded in her 20’s, released _Court and Spark_ in her 30’s and went into her jazz period. It’s not entirely consistent but includes some of her best work and, imo, defines her image as an musician. She gets pretty spotty after that so I’d say she fits the bill pretty well, here. **Andy Partridge** of XTC was also at the top of his game in this 30’s. After the on-stage breakdown that caused him to quit live performances there is a pretty serious shift in XTC’s sound towards more elaborate arrangements and better production. Their earlier stuff is so great, but _Skylarking_ and _Oranges and Lemons_ (and the Dukes of Stratosphear stuff) just have better songwriting all around, imo. (this might be a cop-out since XTC took such a long hiatus after 1992 and didn’t do much after they came back, but ah well) ---
**Author:** ![rikc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c57346/32.png) [@rikc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rikc)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/26 "2011-06-17T11:12:41Z")
Holy cow, Steely Dan had nearly recorded their entire pre-breakup career (everything up through _Aja_) before Donald Fagen was 30? I had no idea, that is terrifying. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/27 "2011-06-17T11:55:13Z")
Mick Jagger/Keith Richards continued to produce some occasional gems after 30: It’s Only Rock and Roll Beast Of Burden Miss You Start Me Up Hang Fire Waiting on a Friend Mixed Emotions ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/28 "2011-06-17T13:12:14Z")
Paul Simon? Simon and Garfunkle broke up just about the time he hit 30. A few years later, he put out “There Goes Rhymin’ Simon” which contains “Kodachrome”, “Loves Me Like a Rock”, and “American Tune” (which I think is one of his best songs ever). Give him another decade, of course, and he comes up with “Graceland”. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/29 "2011-06-17T13:22:01Z")
PJ Harvey ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/30 "2011-06-17T13:53:11Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Bob Dylan > Neil Young > (I get it, you don’t think so. I and many others do) > Elvis Costello > Richard Thompson > Lou Reed > Joni Mitchell Every cool song Elvis Costello ever wrote was written before he turned 30. All of them. After 30 is was bullshit like Favorite Mistake and Veronica Everything Lou Reed ever wrote with the Velvet Underground including Sweet Jane was pre-30. Walk on the Wild Side - pre-30. You can go ahead and say that Bob Dylan and Neil Young post-30 were just as good as they were in their 20’s, but I notice you aren’t backing that up by listing all the great songs they wrote in their 30s. Yeah - Bob Dylan did Tangled Up in Blue and a couple of others in his 30s. Hardly “Blowin in the Wind”. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/31 "2011-06-17T14:14:07Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Paul Simon? Simon and Garfunkle broke up just about the time he hit 30. See - I have a hard time seeing how Paul Simon is an example of a songwriter who’s best work was done in his 30’s. I like Me and Julio and Mother and Child Reunion and all that, but I have really hard time accepting that his solo body of comes anywhere close to matching his S&G work. Am I alone in that feeling? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/32 "2011-06-17T14:18:05Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > You can go ahead and say that Bob Dylan and Neil Young post-30 were just as good as they were in their 20’s, but I notice you aren’t backing that up by listing all the great songs they wrote in their 30s. Just a few of Neil Young’s most famous compositions after age 30: “Like a Hurricane” “Lotta Love” “Out of the Blue/Into the Black” “Pocahontas” “Powderfinger” “Rockin’ in the Free World” “Crime in the City” “Wrecking Ball” By almost any reckoning, _Rust Never Sleeps_ and _Freedom_ are among the very greatest records of his career. Fans like myself would add several more albums to this. Personally, I find the higher peaks of Young’s post-30 writing, while farther apart than his pre-30 peaks, to be the highest of all. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/33 "2011-06-17T14:30:31Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > Every cool song Elvis Costello ever wrote was written before he turned 30. All of them. After 30 is was bullshit like Favorite Mistake and Veronica > > Everything Lou Reed ever wrote with the Velvet Underground including Sweet Jane was pre-30. Walk on the Wild Side - pre-30. > > You can go ahead and say that Bob Dylan and Neil Young post-30 were just as good as they were in their 20’s, but I notice you aren’t backing that up by listing all the great songs they wrote in their 30s. Yeah - Bob Dylan did Tangled Up in Blue and a couple of others in his 30s. Hardly “Blowin in the Wind”. See, this is where our opinions differ. Do you really want me to give you a detailed list of great songs by these artists which were written after they were thirty? I won’t do that, but I’ll give you some albums which I find great: Dylan: “Blood On The Tracks”, “Desire”, “Street Legal”, “Oh Mercy”, “Time Out Of Mind”, “Love and Theft”. And btw., IMHO Dylan wrote hundreds of better songs than “Blowin’ in the Wind”, many of them after he turned 30. Neil Young: “Rust Never Sleeps”, “Freedom”, “Ragged Glory”, “Sleeps With Angels”, “Mirrorball” Elvis Costello: “King Of America”, “Blood And Chocolate”, “Brutal Youth” Lou Reed: “Transformer” (including "Walk on the Wild Side, he was 30 when this was made), “Berlin”, “Coney Island Baby”, “New York”, “Set the Twilight Reeling” ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/34 "2011-06-17T14:47:53Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Just a few of Neil Young’s most famous compositions after age 30: > “Like a Hurricane” > “Lotta Love” > “Out of the Blue/Into the Black” > “Pocahontas” > “Powderfinger” > “Rockin’ in the Free World” > “Crime in the City” > “Wrecking Ball” > > By almost any reckoning, _Rust Never Sleeps_ and _Freedom_ are among the very greatest records of his career. Fans like myself would add several more albums to this. Personally, I find the higher peaks of Young’s post-30 writing, while farther apart than his pre-30 peaks, to be the highest of all. I’ll add “Into the Black” to your list - gives you 9. Here’s my top 9 before 30. “Ohio” (4 dead in) Cinnamon Girl Down By the River Southern Man Needle and the Damage Done Heart of Gold Only Love Can Break Your Heart Alabama Helpless I’ll let our readers decide. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/35 "2011-06-17T14:50:24Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Elvis Costello: “King Of America”, “Blood And Chocolate”, “Brutal Youth” You don’t seriously consider these to be Elvis Costello’s best work, do you? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/36 "2011-06-17T14:56:48Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > You don’t seriously consider these to be Elvis Costello’s best work, do you? Surprise, surprise, yes I’ll rank them among hist best. Maybe you’ve heard before of the fact that opinions, especially about arts, can differ. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/37 "2011-06-17T15:13:51Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > I’ll add “Into the Black” to your list - gives you 9. I already had that. And that was just the top-of-the-head list that people might be most likely to recognize (though on reflection maybe “Powderfinger” isn’t famous to non-fans)… not strictly my “top” list. There’s plenty more. Still, I’m fine with my list against yours. “Alabama,” really? I don’t know what to make of that. And “Heart of Gold” is a pleasant enough little tune, but hardly a _compositional_ landmark. I’d list plenty of other pre-30 works before those, too. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/38 "2011-06-17T15:15:02Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Surprise, surprise, yes I’ll rank them among hist best. Maybe you’ve heard before of the fact that opinions, especially about arts, can differ. I guess… before 30 Alison Olivers Army Every Day I Write the Book Pump it Up Accidents Will Happen Watching the Detectives Clubland… I dunno - you really think his best work was Veronica? I thought most the stuff after he turned 30 was pretty lame. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/39 "2011-06-17T15:20:31Z")
> [@samjones](#): > > I guess… before 30 > > Alison > Olivers Army > Every Day I Write the Book > Pump it Up > Accidents Will Happen > Watching the Detectives > Clubland… > > I dunno - you really think his best work was Veronica? > > I thought most the stuff after he turned 30 was pretty lame. Eh, I didn’t say anything about “Veronica”, it isn’t on any of the albums I mentioned. And I like any of those songs you gave here, but it’s just a fact that I like some of his later stuff as well. For the case you didn’t get the message from my last post, here it is again: the reception of art is _subjective_. ---
**Author:** ![samjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@samjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samjones)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740/40 "2011-06-17T15:24:59Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I already had that. > > And that was just the top-of-the-head list that people might be most likely to recognize (though on reflection maybe “Powderfinger” isn’t famous to non-fans)… not strictly my “top” list. There’s plenty more. > > Still, I’m fine with my list against yours. “Alabama,” really? I don’t know what to make of that. And “Heart of Gold” is a pleasant enough little tune, but hardly a _compositional_ landmark. I’d list plenty of other pre-30 works before those, too. Okay - I remove my Alabama and I don’t double-count you OOB/ITB (my mistake). Then we both have our top 8. Make no mistake - Heart of Gold is Neil Young’s signature song. I don’t see how it’s landmark status should be questioned. My List: “Ohio” (4 dead in) Cinnamon Girl Down By the River Southern Man Needle and the Damage Done Heart of Gold Only Love Can Break Your Heart Helpless Your List: “Like a Hurricane” “Lotta Love” “Out of the Blue/Into the Black” “Pocahontas” “Powderfinger” “Rockin’ in the Free World” “Crime in the City” “Wrecking Ball” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/songwriters-in-their-30s/585740.md?page=3)