# Sons of the Confederacy gets their asses all plugged up over Lincoln Statue **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sons-of-the-confederacy-gets-their-asses-all-plugged-up-over-lincoln-statue/166879 "2003-04-06T16:16:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sons-of-the-confederacy-gets-their-asses-all-plugged-up-over-lincoln-statue/166879/81 "2003-04-16T17:41:29Z")
What **RTFirefly** said. Remember, Lincoln refused to back the Crittenden Compromise, which, had it been successful, probably would have brought the seceeding states back. (Crittenden had proposed some constitutional amendments to guarantee that slavery would always be legal and couldn’t be banned in the territories) A good way to look at the letter to Greeley is as political cover. Lincoln had probably already decided to issue the Emancipation Proclamation when he wrote the letter to Greeley (a preliminary proclamation was written a month later), but he had to know that the proclamation was going to be unpopular, and that critics would try to put the worst face on it as they could…“Lincoln wants race war! Lincoln favors the Negro over the white man!, etc.” Now, the New York Tribune had the reputation of being a “good, Republican” paper…it was generally friendly to the administration, and would usually follow its lead. In his letters to Greeley, it looks like Lincoln is trying to plant an editorial…he’s trying to put a “good spin” on the upcoming Proclamation. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sons-of-the-confederacy-gets-their-asses-all-plugged-up-over-lincoln-statue/166879/82 "2003-04-16T18:37:11Z")
Oh, let’s _do_ have some fun with this. It’s been a while since I got to do a vivisection by vB 😃 > [@](#): > > I also receive far too many emails, and I have grown particularly weary of answering ones from non-members who are eligible to join but far too p. c. to actively honoring their ancestors. If you are going to label anyone ‘too p.c.’ who disagrees with your stance on an issue regarding not only civil rights but civil liberties and anything but the most fundamentalist interpretation of those rights as expressed in the Bill of Rights pre: formal cessation to slavery, you might wish to check your facts at the door. Further, if failure to support an at-best romantically revisionist organization makes on too p. c., consider how much in tune with the modern world your definition of ‘too p. c.’ is. You may be surprised to learn that merely disagreeing with members of a conservative ‘historian’ society does not necessitate this label you bandy around as if it carried with it some communicable disease. > [@](#): > > Thank you for writing and expressing your opinions. That is the wonderful thing about living in a free country and free society, everyone who has an opinion is free to express it. You might be mindful that this freedom of expression includes not only Northern people, but liberals as well as conservatives but also all Southerners. This freedom of expression includes SCV members and non-members alike who are free to disagree with what happens in our world, including Richmond VA. Now please read again what I just wrote, and I ask you to think about it carefully before reading further. Nowhere do I state (you’ll want to revise this slightly if in fact you made the mistake of telling him he isn’t allowed to speak his mind, which I don’t think you did or would do in this context) any belief on the abridgment of civil rights (consider that phrase for just a second, will you?) regarding freedom of speech. And the wonderful thing is that every American citizen, regardless of their appearance. has that same right. The right to not only disagree with government but also individual citizen, private and/or public company, the printed or aired word, and not be subject to personal or capital penalty for such. I have as much right to believe you miss the entire point of the Civil War as you have to believe I have done myself a grave disservice by not joining your organization. > [@](#): > > Before you paint everyone in the SCV with the broad brush of “racist, and just plain dumb” you may wish to study some history other than what you were fed by the public (or perhaps private) schools you attended. Most of these schools use the textbooks written by the victors to justify and sometimes even to glorify this terrible loss of life from 1861-1865. God forbid that anyone attempt to paint in a positive light that which painfully, and with great loss of life, gave an undeservedly yoked people their freedom. I shall take great pains in the future not to similarly talk about the following conflict, which helped to end the murderous and inhuman regimes of dictators: World War II. I do not see any great disservice done anyone by talking about the justice done by the freeing of slaves in America due to the North’s victory in the Civil War. I do not see it as being untrue to anyone to label as a glorious event that which freed that same undeservedly yoked people. How would someone sympathetic to the South’s side of the war paint things? As a war to maintain a way of life that necessitates the perpetual subjugation of a people who have done nothing wrong and worked for no money and in at-times atrocious conditions so that an at-best uptopian lifestyle could be continued to its ultimate demise? You seem to lose yourself in thinking of that war as something unnecessary. it is partially due to this same shared mindset that in some areas of this country we are still fighting for equal rights for black people. > [@](#): > > Your great great grandfather believed he was fighting for independence just like his grandfather likely had done during the Revolutionary War. Revolutionary War soldiers fighting for the colonies were fighting for their independence. Rebel Civil War soldiers were fighting against another people’s independence. Whatever one soldier believed or did not, the accuracy of that belief must be called into question immediately if the above statement is to be borne out in reality. > [@](#): > > You may also consider reading about what occurred in the South during reconstruction when the victors and the puppets they put into office ruled the South, stealing land and personal property from the defeated as well as taking away their right to vote. Show me as brutal a conflict where war reparations were not demanded from the losing party and I will drive to your headquarters and eat my hat in full view of everyone present there. To blame and find fault with the North for the reparations and safety demands they levied on the South is as preposterous and disingenuous as to insinuate that no reparations should have been demanded of Germany for the warmongering they brought about. “To the victor go the spoils,” the saying goes. How would you have done it in their position? Bearing in mind, of course, that the entire economy of the south was ravished by the war to the point that it took decades to recover and the new business in the North, save for railroads, were neither as shared nor as present in the South. > [@](#): > > Your gentle, kind Northerners also had terrible prisons where many Southern boys died in captivity, and you have probably only heard about the inframous Andersonville prison. I doubt that you have much real knowledge about this despicable time in America. It is kind of you to assume the role of “Northern Brutality against the South” Historian for me, but I assure you no such half-hearted, nor equally factually consistent, account is necessary. I am as aware of the events in Andersonville as I am aware of the more than one hundred years of forced involuntary servitude forced upon black slaves by the South. If you are looking to play the sympathy card, look first to your own people and ensure they are not guilty of any wrongdoing. Defending slaveholders is not the way to do this. > [@](#): > > You might also want to look further into this particular Lincoln Statue project as these men in Richmond, Klein and Moran, appear to be attempting to make money off the Lincoln statue while hoodwinking people like you. I seem to have landed in Bizarro World, where capitalism does not exist. People have business for the purpose of making money. Even non-profit companies make money. > [@](#): > > The National Park Service has dropped their support of this project. Did you know that and if so, have you bothered to ask why? Why do Klein and Moran have so many shell corporations and why is there a personal loan of $400,000 to their non-profit being repaid at the high interest rate of 10 % to one of them? Rather than pointing to a cloud of smoke, do you perhaps have a hot match or some kindling to show me, or has your fire already burnt out? > [@](#): > > Their company is is a 501 c 3, not for profit corporation; thus, a smart fellow like you can get on the internet and pull up their 990 IRS returns and see for yourself. And you, who seem so keen on educating me but for your lack of ability to complete the circle, so to speak, would do well to actually make your case instead of waving a big stick and hoping I run away. It does not serve your purpose to attempt to coerce agreement by bluffery. Make your case. > [@](#): > > You might also consider reading a bit more about the much beloved Abraham Lincoln. Perhaps if you were further enlightened about him, you might change your perspective as well. Since you have deemed yourself sufficiently knowledgeable as to attempt to educate me on the nuances of the Civil War, perhaps your vast holdings of information would care to enlighten me as to what part of my education on Abraham Lincoln is remiss. Did those same schools who (evidently erroneously, in your view) taught me that the losing side in a conflict is made to make amends also make a mistake in teaching me that Lincoln, while not a pure abolitionist, was less than a fair and decent man? Again, instead of waving a stick in the air or pointing to a cloud of smoke, make your case instead of insinuating that another one is around the corner. > [@](#): > > You are clearly very confused about the SCV and its goals, and it is obvious someone has filled you with nonsense. See above. If you are going to infer something, at least make your case or you come off as nothing but someone who keeps saying “but … but … but no! That isn’t true!” The next part of this statement is “Because…”, not “Come on!” > [@](#): > > As a retired military officer, I really resent your inflammatory use of Hitler and Saddam Hussein in your silly little letter to the editor. Do you care to elaborate on that position or is your stance yet again firm and unwavering in a non-commital factually lacking representation of an at-best unpopular, and at worst uneducated stance regarding the Civil War? > [@](#): > > Are you a veteran and have you ever served a day in either the reserves or in active service to this country? If you could get back to me with the relevance of this comment, I would appreciate it. > [@](#): > > In the event you should someday be fortunate to encounter the soul of your great great grandfather, I hope he is more considerate of you than you are of the SCV. Should he show more ardent enthusiasm for the study of history, as opposed to the romanticized self-rendered “dead men tell no tales, but we will” account you would give, I am sure he would join me in my own opinion regarding you and yours. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sons-of-the-confederacy-gets-their-asses-all-plugged-up-over-lincoln-statue/166879/83 "2003-04-17T04:34:03Z")
**Captain Amazing** , It is possible to wish for something but to know your duties may well preclude that wish from coming to fruition, you know. **gobear** , I’m not a revisionist, as I do not alter the past to fit my own conception of things. I think you’re looking for the slimeballs the ADL fights. Interesting quotes from those racists. Robert E. Lee’s opinions on slavery were not _much_ better, but he did, at least, [pay lip service to abolition](http://www.civilwarhome.com/leepierce.htm). Jefferson Davis, however, was pro-slavery, and he was the President. Point conceded. **RTFirefly** and **Captain Amazing** , again, I think you two have convinced me. I always thought the Emancipation Proclamation was mere cover, to prevent England from entering the war on the Confederacy’s side, and the Greeley letter was closer to Lincoln’s own feelings on the issue. I hadn’t considered the problem Lincoln had with admitting new slave states as part of an anti-slavery, as opposed to an anti-Southern, sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Kallisti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@Kallisti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kallisti)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sons-of-the-confederacy-gets-their-asses-all-plugged-up-over-lincoln-statue/166879/84 "2003-04-17T17:03:44Z")
\>If you’re not From The South, you can’t really imagine the Pride of Dixie in some people’s hearts. So, saying things like “you’re a racist,” “you guys lost,” “it wasn’t Northern aggression, it was all about the slaves,” are going to get hostile reactions.\< I must agree. How about a statue of General Robert E. Lee in Washington D.C.? I was born in California, but I have come to have a great respect for the Confederacy and the soldiers who fought and died wearing grey. I have walked the fields of Gettysburg and climbed Little Round Top. My home flagpole has proudly flown the “Don’t tread on Me” flag, the original Old Glory, and the Confederate flags: the Stars and Bars, the Battle Flag, and the Bonnie Blue flag. I’m Union all the way, but I honor the Confederacy as part of my American heritage. 8% of Southerners owned slaves. The other 92% were defending their homes from an invading foreign army that was trying to crush the South’s bid for independence just as the British tried to stop the US from becoming independent. Imagine a Brit telling all of us that we lost the war for independence, get over it and bow to the Queen. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sons-of-the-confederacy-gets-their-asses-all-plugged-up-over-lincoln-statue/166879/85 "2003-04-17T20:13:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kallisti \* > How about a statue of General Robert E. Lee in Washington D.C.? No need, really. It happens that the [Robert E. Lee Memorial](http://www.nps.gov/arho/) is right across Memorial Bridge from the Lincoln Memorial. > [@](#): > > I’m Union all the way, but I honor the Confederacy as part of my American heritage. Why? Because they fought bravely and believed in their cause? That’s not enough. I don’t think I’m Godwinizing when I point out that the same was surely true of typical German soldiers in WWII. > [@](#): > > 8% of Southerners owned slaves. The other 92% mostly didn’t want the slaves freed, either. > [@](#): > > were defending their homes from an invading foreign army that was trying to crush the South’s bid for independence You may honor the Confederacy, but you’ve evidently forgotten who started the shooting. > [@](#): > > just as the British tried to stop the US from becoming independent. Imagine a Brit telling all of us that we lost the war for independence, get over it and bow to the Queen. If we had in fact lost that war, I’m sure we would have gotten over it a long time ago. Particularly in the Deep South, which was the colonial region _least_ interested in independence from Britain. And of course, if we’d lost that war, slavery in what is now the U.S. would have ended in 1838, when the Brits banned it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sons-of-the-confederacy-gets-their-asses-all-plugged-up-over-lincoln-statue/166879/86 "2003-04-17T21:05:25Z")
The [Southern Poverty Law Center has a great article on the Sons of the Confederate Veterans](http://www.splcenter.org/intelligenceproject/ip-4x1.html), detailing their recent takeover by racist nutballs. Hell, one of the sfolks orchestrating this campaign lives not half an hour from me. A local celebrity! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sons-of-the-confederacy-gets-their-asses-all-plugged-up-over-lincoln-statue/166879/87 "2003-04-17T21:14:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kallisti \* > \*\*8% of Southerners owned slaves. The other 92% were defending their homes from an invading foreign army that was trying to crush the South’s bid for independence just as the British tried to stop the US from becoming independent. \*\* Actually a lot of the people who fought (on both sides, honestly) because all their friends had joined and they wanted to go with them, or because they figured it would be exciting, or because anything’s got to be more fun than walking up and down a hot field looking at a mule’s ass all day, or because they needed the sign up bonus, or because they couldn’t get in the woods fast enough when the draft people came. And not all of them did fight. Unionism in the Confederacy was always a presence, especially in the upper South, but even in the Deep South, by 1863, desertion had become a major problem in the Confederate army, and, before the war was over, every Confederate state except for South Carolina had raised at least one volunteer unit for the US army. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sons-of-the-confederacy-gets-their-asses-all-plugged-up-over-lincoln-statue/166879.md?page=4)