# Sony rumored to say "No" to used games. Just like MS. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 7, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116 "2012-04-07T21:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/81 "2012-04-11T15:44:30Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Theoretically, yes you can. The thing is, finding a reputable US retailer who will A) Ship to Australia and B) not charge insane shipping prices for it. > > You’ve also got to take into account C), the inordinate length of time it takes to get goods from the US to Australia by post, and D) If you’re talking about consoles, the fact US console games (NTSC) won’t generally play on Australian consoles (PAL)… Arg, I completely forgot about the PAL vs NTSC thing. Surprised shipping is so high, for what should just be a DVD + some documentation. Bummer. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/82 "2012-04-11T16:05:39Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Arg, I completely forgot about the PAL vs NTSC thing. Surprised shipping is so high, for what should just be a DVD + some documentation. > > Bummer. Is this a real issue, or something the console manufacturers are purposely continuing, as a form of market control? I can’t imagine that the resolution output can’t be accommodated in code, or actually, code independent, and just handled by the hardware output. ---
**Author:** ![Mogle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mogle/32/12021_2.png) [@Mogle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mogle)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/83 "2012-04-11T16:38:54Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > Is this a real issue, or something the console manufacturers are purposely continuing, as a form of market control? > > I can’t imagine that the resolution output can’t be accommodated in code, or actually, code independent, and just handled by the hardware output. It’s a form of market control, not sure about the current generation, but on older consoles there were ways of getting in around it as long as you didn’t mind voiding your warranty. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/84 "2012-04-11T19:54:32Z")
Can some one please give me a brief course on the Economics of the Video Gaming Industry 101? Because I’m really not understanding what people are talking about in this thread. Used video games and the retailers who sent them aren’t hurting the game producers. Why should the producers continue to get a cut when they’ve already made their money off the original sale of the game? When calculating a nation’s gross GDP, you only factor in new cars sold, not used cars, since money from the sale of used cars doesn’t go to the manufacturer, nor should it. Why would the video game industry be any different? As a matter of fact, I think used video game retailers are _helping_ the industry… I’m one of those people that if I can’t get a game used, I’ll wait until the price goes down. Would they rather make $60 on a game someone bought then sold me, or $30 on a game I bought when the prices went down? So the PS4 and new Xbox won’t be backward compatible. I fail to see how this hurts gamers. I still have my PS2 and use it from time to time for nostalgia games. The new PS3 wasn’t backward compatible… I didn’t see gamers quitting in droves. People are complaining that they can’t resell Steam games? Unless Steam sent you a CD disc in the mail, why should you be able to sell it? After you sell something, it means you don’t have it anymore. I don’t understand how someone can resell a game they downloaded… do you promise to delete it or something? Maybe I’m just getting old, but this thread makes no sense to me. Please enlighten me. And no, I’m not being facetious… I am genuinely confused. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/85 "2012-04-11T20:39:59Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > As a matter of fact, I think used video game retailers are _helping_ the industry… I’m one of those people that if I can’t get a game used, I’ll wait until the price goes down. Would they rather make $60 on a game someone bought then sold me, or $30 on a game I bought when the prices went down? What about the guy who buys the game off of you. And the guy who buys the game off of the guy who bought it off of you… and so on and so forth. You really can’t see how selling 1 copy that gets resold to 100 other people without the publisher seeing any of that money, can hurt the industry? so yes, they would prefer to make SOME money out of your purchase, than 0. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/86 "2012-04-11T20:42:06Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > Would they rather make $60 on a game someone bought then sold me, or $30 on a game I bought when the prices went down? They’d rather make $60 from the original sale _and_ $30 from you when the prices go down. 😃 > [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > People are complaining that they can’t resell Steam games? Unless Steam sent you a CD disc in the mail, why should you be able to sell it? After you sell something, it means you don’t have it anymore. I don’t understand how someone can resell a game they downloaded… do you promise to delete it or something? You wouldn’t promise to delete it, you’d be forced to (or it would become inoperable). These two parts of your post taken together are interesting - you’re taking almost opposite positions for games purchased on physical media and for downloaded games. Should your rights be different just based on the way the product was delivered to you? ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/87 "2012-04-11T21:36:06Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The doctrine of first sale says that, with all other types of products, once a person purchases the product, they have a right to sell it or hand it off to someone else. The question, i guess, is why the companies should be allowed to engage in a form of transfer that effectively circumvents this law. Should you be able to buy a year-pass to Disneyland, and then parcel it out and re-sell it to 52 people that all want it for the weekend? With games (and movies and books for that matter), I think you can make many analogies to _consumable goods_. You buy it, play it once or twice, and then it doesn’t have much personal utility after that. But since it’s digital, the game is still in pristine condition, even after you’re done with it. The graphics haven’t gotten shabbier with use, the plotline hasn’t started missing a few pages of dialog. If anything, the game’s probably been patched, so its even better than it was at release. These factors make games prime for resale abuse, unlike an automobile, for example. Games also have it worse than movies, because movies have multiple opportunities and sources for revenue. They start with theater tickets (single-use only), move on to pay-per-view (single-use only), then DVD/Bluray sales, HBO, and finally network television. Games only have one source for revenue. Someone could buy a game the day of release, play it for 10 hours straight, complete it, and then resell it for a large fraction of what they paid for it. Try doing that with a movie stub. Books are another close comparision, but books start showing wear-and-tear after just a single read. An AAA book also only really requires a single person to write, and a pretty small budget, so while used bookstores might be hurting an author’s bottom line, AAA books will still be written by people who just enjoy writing as a hobby and don’t care about the money. An AAA game these days usually requires hundreds of people and millions of dollars just to create the first copy. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/88 "2012-04-11T22:23:05Z")
Don’t have time to look up cites, but my understanding of the high prices for software and hardware in Australia is that the wholesale cost is about the same as they are anywhere. Products are simply marked up more. Yes, seems like somebody could make a killing undercutting the competition, but I suspect that the real issue is higher operating costs, not obscene retail profits. As for books, I know that local publishers are protected by some sort of tariff. It came up for review in Parliament a few years ago and some prominent Australian authors came out in support of the protective measures. If a book is not published in Australia, you can can get it cheaper. And yeah, getting stuff shipped can be stupid expensive. We got an Amazon certificate several years ago for Xmas. Most of it went toward shipping. And don’t get me started on the price of housing. Small price to pay for the benefits of living here, though, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/89 "2012-04-11T22:42:15Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > Should you be able to buy a year-pass to Disneyland, and then parcel it out and re-sell it to 52 people that all want it for the weekend? > > With games (and movies and books for that matter), I think you can make many analogies to _consumable goods_. You buy it, play it once or twice, and then it doesn’t have much personal utility after that. But since it’s digital, the game is still in pristine condition, even after you’re done with it. The graphics haven’t gotten shabbier with use, the plotline hasn’t started missing a few pages of dialog. If anything, the game’s probably been patched, so its even better than it was at release. These factors make games prime for resale abuse, unlike an automobile, for example. > > Games also have it worse than movies, because movies have multiple opportunities and sources for revenue. They start with theater tickets (single-use only), move on to pay-per-view (single-use only), then DVD/Bluray sales, HBO, and finally network television. Games only have one source for revenue. Someone could buy a game the day of release, play it for 10 hours straight, complete it, and then resell it for a large fraction of what they paid for it. Try doing that with a movie stub. > > Books are another close comparision, but books start showing wear-and-tear after just a single read. An AAA book also only really requires a single person to write, and a pretty small budget, so while used bookstores might be hurting an author’s bottom line, AAA books will still be written by people who just enjoy writing as a hobby and don’t care about the money. An AAA game these days usually requires hundreds of people and millions of dollars just to create the first copy. I, personally, have WORN OUT three copies of Civ III (the version that requires the disk to boot up). One copy was given to me by a kind doper, but the other two were new copies. I don’t buy games that are good for only 10 hours of play. And I do buy merchandise from games…things like figurines, posters, and I might buy a companion cube if I could find one. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/90 "2012-04-12T00:34:02Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Really? The few times I walk into GameStop, the used game is selling for a measly 5 bucks less than the new game. Online it looks like the used version of ME3 is $47.99 with the new version being $59.99. I guess 12 bucks is a bit better. Skyrim is going for $54.99 used and $59.99 new. A whole 5 bucks in saving. I was going off my experience buying used games in Japan. If GameStop pricing is what you’re suggesting, I can’t see how getting rid of used games is going to hurt sales much. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/91 "2012-04-12T00:45:29Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Surprised shipping is so high, for what should just be a DVD + some documentation. I can’t comment on Australia specifically, but a problem I’ve run into dealing with ordering from Japan is that a lot of places will only ship internationally by EMS. EMS is best for the seller because it provides international tracking but is also the most expensive option. So, for example, a one pound package from Japan to the US sent by EMS costs $18.50 and arrives in 2 days. Personally, I’ve be perfectly happy to pay $7 to have it arrive in 2 weeks, but that’s not an option offered. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/92 "2012-04-12T05:34:27Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > Should you be able to buy a year-pass to Disneyland, and then parcel it out and re-sell it to 52 people that all want it for the weekend? > > With games (and movies and books for that matter), I think you can make many analogies to _consumable goods_. You buy it, play it once or twice, and then it doesn’t have much personal utility after that. But since it’s digital, the game is still in pristine condition, even after you’re done with it. The graphics haven’t gotten shabbier with use, the plotline hasn’t started missing a few pages of dialog. If anything, the game’s probably been patched, so its even better than it was at release. These factors make games prime for resale abuse, unlike an automobile, for example. > > Games also have it worse than movies, because movies have multiple opportunities and sources for revenue. They start with theater tickets (single-use only), move on to pay-per-view (single-use only), then DVD/Bluray sales, HBO, and finally network television. Games only have one source for revenue. Someone could buy a game the day of release, play it for 10 hours straight, complete it, and then resell it for a large fraction of what they paid for it. Try doing that with a movie stub. > > Books are another close comparision, but books start showing wear-and-tear after just a single read. An AAA book also only really requires a single person to write, and a pretty small budget, so while used bookstores might be hurting an author’s bottom line, AAA books will still be written by people who just enjoy writing as a hobby and don’t care about the money. An AAA game these days usually requires hundreds of people and millions of dollars just to create the first copy. Good post. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/93 "2012-04-12T13:52:43Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > Should you be able to buy a year-pass to Disneyland, and then parcel it out and re-sell it to 52 people that all want it for the weekend? Should you be able to buy season tickets to the Texas Tech Red Raiders and sell/give away the tickets for the games you can’t attend? Hell yes. A big part of the argument is how it comes to you; a year pass to Disneyland is a single swipeable credit-card-like thing that’s biometrically linked to you, and you know that going in to the purchase. If instead they sent you 52 individual weekend passes, then I’d say you’re fully entitled to go ahead and sell 'em. Packaging is a big part of how we expect to deal with stuff we buy, and I’m not talking about the pretty box. Until recently, we bought games on physical media, like cartridges and such, and we expected to be able to resell them like any other item we might buy. That has become the expectation. Now they want to change that model, and they’re welcome to try, but they need to understand that there will be market resistance, especially if they continue charging the same price point for something you can’t actually hold in your hand. > [@](#): > > With games (and movies and books for that matter), I think you can make many analogies to _consumable goods_. You buy it, play it once or twice, and then it doesn’t have much personal utility after that. But since it’s digital, the game is still in pristine condition, even after you’re done with it. The graphics haven’t gotten shabbier with use, the plotline hasn’t started missing a few pages of dialog. If anything, the game’s probably been patched, so its even better than it was at release. These factors make games prime for resale abuse, unlike an automobile, for example. “Resale abuse”? Do you work for the game companies? Reselling an item I’ve purchased isn’t “abuse”, any more than copying a digital file is “theft” (it may be “infringement”, but it’s not “theft” unless you intend to deprive another of the item). Gotta run, so I can’t address the rest; back later. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/94 "2012-04-12T14:46:47Z")
I consider this whole discussion sortof [old news](http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/a-war-on-used-games-is-a-war-on-gamestop-here-comes-the-science). For reasons stated in the linked article and elsewhere in this thread, it seems extremely questionable that Microsoft or Sony would attempt something like this. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/95 "2012-04-12T14:58:20Z")
I’m not going to buy anything that’s DRM-crippled, I’ve had enough headaches with PC software. _Even if_ I agreed that it was immoral / theft whatever to buy a used game (which I don’t, and I’m a game developer myself. I agree that it’s like any other kind of second-hand store), in practice stuff like this always impinges on the quality of the product for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/96 "2012-04-12T19:49:35Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > Until recently, we bought games on physical media, like cartridges and such, and we expected to be able to resell them like any other item we might buy. What’s this “until recently” stuff? The vast majority of games are still sold as a physical disc that can be traded in or sold on eBay. But the real reason it’ll never happen is because Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony would have to illegally collude for anything like this to work. If one takes the first step and announces a reauthentication scheme, the other two just won’t include that feature and then push their consoles as used game friendly. Bam, whichever company is forcing customers to reauthenticate used games is finished. So rest easy friends. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/97 "2012-04-12T19:51:18Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > a year pass to Disneyland is a single swipeable credit-card-like thing that’s biometrically linked to you, and you know that going in to the purchase. Which is pretty close to the model that the console market is trying to pursue. A single “pass” that is linked to you and you only. Imagine an alternate universe where due to logistics, Disneyland was only able to sell one kind of ticket - “lifetime passes”, that were freely transferrable between parties. What sort of “used pass” market do you think is going to spring up? Of course if Disney suddenly tried to change their ticketing back to what they currently have now, there will be some resistance to it. But Disney is freely within their rights to do so, and you are free to not buy their product. > [@Max\_Torque](#): > > “Resale abuse”? Do you work for the game companies? If a restaurant gives you free refills, and you decide this means that you’re allowed to bring in your own 2-liter bottle and fill it up, and then “resell” your cup to your friend sitting next to you who does the same, you’re abusing the system. Management is free to rescind their “free refills” policy, or kick you out. No, I don’t work for the game companies, but I like games, and there are many talented developers out there that I think deserve compensation, especially when people actually enjoy their games. I’d have no problem if consoles adopted the “Steam” model of distribution. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/98 "2012-04-12T22:09:18Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > If a restaurant gives you free refills, and you decide this means that you’re allowed to bring in your own 2-liter bottle and fill it up, and then “resell” your cup to your friend sitting next to you who does the same, you’re abusing the system. Good thing that’s not at all like selling a used game then. I buy both used and new games. I would be very unlikely to buy a system with this included. I’d think the same people who typically buy used games will be the same people who will keep buying used games for a previous generation system, and that’s what I’d do. But if they don’t implement this on the system release date, I’d have no confidence it wouldn’t be added in some system update. Even if they change their minds, I don’t know if I’ll get the next gen system. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/99 "2012-04-12T23:09:59Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > But if they don’t implement this on the system release date, I’d have no confidence it wouldn’t be added in some system update. Even if they change their minds, I don’t know if I’ll get the next gen system. If a kind of online registration model isn’t available from the start, there is absolutely zero chance they patch it in later. Not only because of all the negative press it would garner, but because such a system would run afoul of false advertising laws. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116/100 "2012-04-12T23:48:36Z")
There’s precedent. Sony [removed functionality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_3) from the PS3: > [@](#): > > OtherOS was a feature available in early versions of the PlayStation 3 video game console that allowed other operating systems, such as Linux or FreeBSD, to be installed on the system. This feature was made unavailable in newer models and removed from the oldest ones through a firmware update by Sony. > […] > Sony stated, “It was fully intended that you, a PS3 owner, could play games, watch movies, view photos, listen to music, and run a full-featured Linux operating system that transforms your PS3 into a home computer.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sony-rumored-to-say-no-to-used-games-just-like-ms/618116.md?page=6)