On a more serious note, here is information about ANWR from the Union of Concerned Scientists:
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/biodiversity/page.cfm?pageID=780
Note added in preview: CanvasShoes–With all due respect to your extensive personal experience working up in that area, I think I’ll believe a National Academy of Sciences report over one person’s personal experiences.
No shit, honey pie. I want a cite on the film precisely because it would be stuipd beyond belief.
Some random shmoe on the Internet who claims to have seen something frankly unbelievable? Nope, I want a cite, poobear.
Not gonna cut it. You make the extraordinary claim, you back it up, honey chile.
Way to avoid the critique, lovey dove. The point you are pointedly ignoring is that even if you “minimize” environmental impact, the mere fact that you’re engaging in massive exploration and drilling means that you’re fucking up the environment.
Boy, are you on the wrong board.
I don’t believe those scare tactics, sugar. I believe the scientific studies, such as the one cited above. It illustrates an environmental cost to a basically pristine wilderness that I am unwilling to pay for the comparatively paltry gains in domestic energy production.
:rolleyes: I think you are going to have pay for her plane ticket before she believes you CanvasShoes.
:rolleyes: right back atcha, snuggums.
Um, Mints? Are you asking for a ‘cite’ about the fact there’s no trees in ANWR, or, by your first post, asking for a cite about the supposed “greenie” declaration of denuded trees?
I can understand the latter, but as for the former, the nearest tree to the North Slope is probably two or three hundred miles South, on the other side of a mountain range. The Refuge is almost entirely Tundra, meaning nothing but low grasses, lichens and mosses, over a spongy, wet humus, which itself is over permafrost and usually ancient glacial or aluvial gravel.
And I don’t know about Canvas, but I’ve been there. Fortunately in the summer, but still. I live here, I’ve been there- it’s the other end of the State, over 800 miles from here- and I’d wager you’ve never set foot in Alaska.
You ought to get some first-hand data before you compare oil exploration and development- which you yourself, personally, honey chile, benefit from daily- to murder.
As another Alaskan, I want to chime in and confirm that there are no trees in tundra areas. Shoot, that’s pretty much the DEFINITION of tundra. Areas that support trees are taiga, areas that are too severe for trees are tundra. There are no trees on the north slope of Alaska for the same reason there aren’t any trees on the tops of mountains.
I have no scientific data about how caribou are affected by the pipeline. They might TEND to avoid it. However, I have seen with my own two eyes herds of caribou walking around near the pipeline, under the pipeline, and beside the pipeline. The pipeline is not a death sentence for caribou.
The other thing I ask people to remember is that ANWR is an area the size of the state of Pennsylvania. Oil exploration might damage parts of ANWR, or it might not. But drilling for oil in Pennsylvania doesn’t destroy the environment of the whole state.
Alaska is a big state. I don’t think you inhabitants of the Lower 48 understand exactly how big Alaska really is, and how few people really live there, and how little development there is there.
:rolleyes: Oh, gee, can we? can we look on the net? You can also find “proof” on the net that the moon is made of cheese.
Sweetheart, as I’ve explained, at least 3 times now, these are from MY little blonde self actually having SEEN and experienced these things.
Ack, I’m not gonna repeat MY part in helping oil companies stay clean, it’s all in my other threads.
I can’t provide a “cite” for this particular statement other than my own two eyes, and the words of “slopers” who’d been in Prudhoe for years.
Yup, they like to stand on the pads, and the insects aren’t nearly as plentiful as in the midst of the tundra. I don’t know why the bugs don’t congregate there as much, sorry. This wasn’t a scientific announcement, merely one of personal “eyes on” experience.
And as to the “bring a pad to sit on” good grief! LOL, but yes, if you get back OUT of the greenery of any type and onto dry ground, you have very little insect activity around you.
Cite? I’m a 34 year “sourdough” who has been in the enviro biz for 15 years and I’ve been all over the state, from Barrow, to Dutch Harbor, to Bethel and Kotz, to Point Lay (don’t ask, I have NO idea), Point Hope, Fort Yukon…and dozens and dozens of other sites. And YES, if you stay ON the gravel, the bugs are few and far between!!!
I think people that find “information on the net” regarding OUR environmental picture are finding information gleaned from Movies such as “On Deadly Ground” and “Insomnia”.
Ooops, I forgot to add my take on your link. Pure garbage 400 spill Annually? Since when? Not when I was on the Spill Response Team. We had many more spills than drills.
The damage is to land, air and water is substantial?
Once again, I have seen this place, with my OWN eyes, many many times, it’s gorgeous up there!!
Beautiful rolling tundra and lakes as far as you can see, birds of all varieties are always in or near these lakes (sorry, my specialty is in the DOT/RCRA EPA end of the enviro biz, I’m not well-versed in species names etc).
There are always caribou wandering around somewhere nearby, OH, and you want to talk damage to the tundra? See…caribou migrate along the same path every year, where they go, there isn’t even any tundra.
At one of tne of the sites I was investigating in 2000 (not oilfield, military), a caretaker showed our crew old caribou migrating trails from 10 or 15 years before (that particular herd had died out from that area at around that time frame, not due to oil, just natural decrease of an already small herd, the Radar base had kept records).
Yes, the drilling fields have an impact on the environment. So do cities, where we live. So does everything we humans do. If we still lived in grass huts and hunted for a living, we’d still be having an impact. Every living thing on the planet has an impact on the environment. Some have a larger impact.
Is oil exploration and drilling the greatest thing to do to the land? No. Is it the great evil raper of pristine wilderness that sites like the one you linked would have us to believe? No it isn’t.
I’m sorry, not meaning to sound snotty in reply here, but this link is the sort of nonsensical propaganda of which I speak.
I have no beef with this link, OTHER than that they forgot to mention (once again, sigh) that the drilling site is about 300 miles AWAY from the Porcupine migration route.
Go to the colored map at the bottom of the link. See the tiny little blue areas at the north toward Deadhorse?
THAT is the proposed drilling area. Not the whole of ANWR.
Some random shmoe on the Internet who claims to have seen something frankly unbelievable? Nope, I want a cite, poobear.
Shoes: It was produced by Greenpeace and had some ominous name like “The Murder of the Last Frontier”. I watched it with a class of about 50 people at the University of Alaska at Kenai.
Mint: Not gonna cut it. You make the extraordinary claim, you back it up, honey chile.
Shoes: Not sure what you’re asking here. To prove the dorms/buildings etc are on stilts (with skirting, DUH!). Or are you still on about the film?
Mints: Way to avoid the critique, lovey dove. The point you are pointedly ignoring is that even if you “minimize” environmental impact, the mere fact that you’re engaging in massive exploration and drilling means that you’re fucking up the environment.
Shoes: Again, critique meaning you are still on about the film I “didn’t” see? Or are you on to a new subject, namely now you think I’m lying that the buildings/housing etc are mods and removeable? Let me know, THAT I can find a pic or two on.
mint: Boy, are you on the wrong board.
Shoes: nah, I just calls em as I sees em.
Mint: I don’t believe those scare tactics, sugar. I believe the scientific studies, such as the one cited above. It illustrates an environmental cost to a basically pristine wilderness that I am unwilling to pay for the comparatively paltry gains in domestic energy production.
Well, then you must believe OJ is innocent too!!! Since you seem to rely heavily on information found on the net (and we all KNOW what a paragon of truth that is).
Look, I realize I’m just one person, but you seem intelligent to realize that you can’t believe everything you read.
The concerned scientists link WAS a good one, other than that they neglected to mention that the proposed drilling site is about 250-300 miles to the northwest of the caribou herd route. Cite? ARCO classified docs.
The other link? With the 400 oil spill annually (NOT), was a vast exaggeration bordering on outright lies.
OH, by the way, do you realize that if a mechanic spills even a tiny puddle of oil, he MUST report it to the EPA and that THAT counts as a spill? EPA requires that ALL spills, no matter how small, be reported. And THAT I can provide a cite for. 40 and 49 CFR will tell you ALL you never wanted to know about spill reporting and hazardous materials.
They even have a website www.epa.gov Have at it sweetie!!!
Also, Alaska soil is naturally higher in background metals (the “RCRA 8” such as arsenic, barium, lead, etc. found in 40CFR TCLP Table 1) and hydrocarbons (www.state.us/adec, if this is an incorrect addy, let me know, I am on my home 'puter and don’t have my regulatory sites list on my “faves” here), than most other states so saying that the high levels of hazardous materials in the soils are due to the drilling is a bit of a stretch.
I can add that Oil Spill Responce in Prince William Sound is up and running where it should have been March 24, 1989. Tankers are boomed off in port and escorted by tugs all the way to Hinchinbrook. (After that they’re on their own). The Coast Guard has upgraded their radar and have the power to shut PWS down to tanker traffic due to high winds, ice etc. We shouldn’t have another Exxon Valdez, but we are more than ready if we do. If you’d like a cite look up RCAC. (Regional Citizens Advisory Council)
Also, if you want to go look at ANWR yourself it costs about $6,000 from Anchorage. The only people that can afford it are eviromentalist groups on “somebody’s” payroll.
To expand on the last tidbit Canvas noted, when someone says “spills”, it does not mean “Another Valdez Class Event”.
You might be rather astonished with the level of oversight, regulation and paperwork involved. I used to work as a “prover”- I calibrated postive-displacement oil accountancy meters, the equivalent of a “gas pump” for crude, they tally up flow over a period of time in barrels, and the oil thus recorded is what the companies pay or get paid by. Naturally, accuracy is paramount- being a small fraction of a percent off adds up quickly considering one meter could flow 30,000+ barrels every two weeks.
Anyway, I “proved” these things with a trailer-mounted postive displacement prover loop, connected to the meters via large camlok hoses. In the years I did this, I was personally responsible for perhaps a dozen events that were recorded as ‘spills’.
One was the trickle from a sticky sample valve. Roughly a teaspoon. There were eight forms to fill out, four of which I had to sign. Another time I had the bad luck to drop a sample bottle- this one was the biggest spill yet- a whole quart. However, it happened in the winter, and we shovelled up every drop of contaminated snow. Not a drop reached the “ground”, and all the tools were cleaned with sorbies and residues disposed of properly. Ten forms, four to be signed. I had to account for the water generated when the snow melted and was pumped from the sump into the main tanks. Another time I was draining the hoses and an air bubble in the line caused a splash in the bucket, leaving a small trace of droplets around the bucket edge. Again, probably two tablespoons. Eight more forms, four more signatures.
The rest were even smaller- one involved a footprint of oil residue.
Also keep in mind a mechanic in the field, knocking over a quart jug of refined motor oil, brake fluid, radiator coolant, or even windshield washer fluid is recorded as a “spill”. The nature of the regulatory oversight is ANYTHING other than clean water, is considered a spill and must be recorded, cleaned up, and accounted for.
Yes, spills happen. It’s the nature of the beast- billions of gallons are pumped daily through thousands of miles of pipelines, tanks, valves and pumps. Some are indeed large- tens, or even hundreds of gallons. The majority- numerically as far as the scare statistics go- involve droplets and teaspoons.
But then, car accidents happen. Should we stop driving cars altogether, to assure there will never, ever be another accident, or do we simply do our best to prevent the accident from happening during the course of the activity?
Okay,
(gee mint, make me work why doncha? )
Here are some sites, you can see for yourselves that Prudhoe is not some big wasteland pool of sludge.
http://www.arcticcaribouinn.com/pics.html
This one…
… is part of a BP document similar to the ones I co-authored while working for another oil company.
The oil companies don’t do these studies themselves, they hire companies like mine to help them comply.
That was my point when I stated that ARCO paid out large sums of money to those coming up with innovative ideas for reducing and minimizing environmental and safety risks.
NOT that they are trying to “mitigate” their responsibility, but that far from being the money grubbing, corner cutting “aaaah, who cares what happens to the environment as long as we make money” type land rapers, they bend over backward to not just meet, but to exceed EPA requirements.
PS Mint, (slightly off-topic), I liked “poobear” the best, that’ll do 
And thanks for “making” me do research. All this stuff from my work is just sort of “up there in the brain” but I was able to find some really interesting stuff that I’d forgotten all about.
I haven’t worked with any of the oil companies for about 6 years, my current job is as PM for several projects (as a contractor not employee) for DoD installations.
So the “refresher” was great.
Thanks!
Monk (I hope your comment “I really hate dishonesty” was directed at that you hadn’t had a chance to provide backup, rather than at my statements), at any rate, DO please check out the sites I provided, especially the environmental impact report page 3-25, there’s a GREAT picture of a facility close-by in the background, and the foreground is absolutely CROWDED with caribou, birds and a lovely body of water nestled in the nice clean tundra.
There are also several pictures of the buildings on stilts SANS foundations, buildings that were part of the engineering controls put into place to make rehabilitation (which yes, all the oil companies had to agree to with the state of Alaska), as painless and quick as possible.
Also, read the text, it supports all of the statements regarding the caribou vs insects, and the wildlife not only not being bothered, but being plentiful in the oilfield operations areas, I made in my posts.
Just like to point out that mosquitos and “swampy little scrub brush” are wildlife too and it’s not for us to decide what’s good impact and what’s bad impact. Humans have tried that tact too often before and invariably screw up.
The fact is that carabou, mosquitos and everything else there have managed to get by there happily for far longer than us. The carabou do not need our help in tackling mosquitos.
Anything we do can’t fail to impact, and often in ways you wouldn’t expect. What we see as helpful to carabou, because we’ve decided we like them, may also be just the thing for other creatures that impact on others, that displace another, that upset the carabou.
I was just checking back momentarily to see who else may have attempted to shed light on the situation, and it seems clear to me that CanvasShoes is being dishonest. As a paid employee of an oil company who claims to be an environmentalist, this is frankly expected. Rather than deal with “a lot of these spills are teensy drops” posts, I’m just going to ignore this thread from now on. Go ahead & take your parting shots; I’m not going to allow you to waste any more of my time.
You know, maybe you are on to something… Malaria is wildlife too, who are we to try and eradicate it?
First of all, CanvasShoes claimed NOT to work for the oil companies. He may or may not be lying about that, but he never claimed to do so. So what evidence do you have that he is lying? He may be lying, but how do you know?
And this “I can’t actually debate this issue, so I’m declaring victory and going home” play is pathetic, straight off of Fenris’s list of Board Losers.
Thanks Lemur, I’m utterly perplexed by his attitude, I have to admit.
First I’m a SHE, not a he. And I’d like to know how I’m being dishonest? I have never worked for an oil company. (no wait, that’s quite not true, I did do a three week stint at Unocal at a turnaround, but that was their Urea plant, not the oil department).
It’s quite clear that Monk is not reading my posts. For I’ve stated that quite clearly. And at Mint’s much more reasonable (though somewhat snipy) request, I’ve provided links which support everything I’ve said. She(he?) was quite right in asking that I provide backup, and I did so.
But, to simplify for Monk, who seems to be having trouble reading past the first sentence (or any sentence on which he’d like to take out his frustations), let me spell it out for him.
I am a FEMALE environmental project manager. I’ll be 44 in April, and I’ve lived in Alaska going on 34 years (at 30 years residence, one is considered a “sourdough” male OR female).
At the time I was involved in work in Prudhoe Bay, I worked for an environmental company (just like I have for the last 15 years), they, the enviro company, were contracted by the oil field company to author contingency plans, operate a spill response database (that was the main project I was on), and provide personnel for oil spill response and hazardous materials management.
Secondly, I’ve provided links, complete WITH nice color pictures for anyone who’d like to see whether I know what I’m talking about.
[being snipy]
I recommend, in particular, the photo of the bear and her two cubs nestled in the gravel near a Prudhoe Bay building and a monitoring well.
The one of the herd of muskox is nice, but the best one (that backs up my words the best) is the one of the dozens of birds and caribou on perfectly clean, green tundra directly in front of Prudhoe Bay facilities.
[/being snipy]
If monk would care to read, I direct him to the environmental impact report to which I provided a link. It also backs up everything I’ve said regarding the lengths to which the oil companies go to protect the enviroment.
Third, why is it so unbelievable that I’ve worked in Prudhoe Bay? Many Alaskans now do, or have in the past worked there. Monk’s acting as if working in Prudhoe is some farfetched, glorious, celebrity-type rare occurance for people or something.
(pssst, It’s not, we have a saying "Please don’t tell my mom I work in Prudhoe Bay, she thinks I’m a piano player in a whorehouse)
I’m not angry, just perplexed. I don’t see that I’ve made any outrageous claims to fame or anything here. Not to mention, that at least two other Alaskans have chimed in supporting what I’ve had to say, at least in part.
Monk, please clarify what it is that you believe I’ve been dishonest about. Also, you might want to read my WHOLE posts rather than just picking phrases out of context with which to take issue. (not said snottily, but merely in a matter of fact way).
First of all, I didn’t bring up the “caribou like the gravel pads” statement to say “well HECK!! lets help the caribou, let’s put an oil drilling platform here so they’ll have gravel pads to stand on!!!”. I brought it up to counter the claims that caribou were afraid of and avoided the oil drilling facilities.
They don’t, they’re there at the facilities and they’re plentiful. Take a look at the links I provided.
Secondly, everything humans do will impact the environment. Were we still to be living in grass huts and cooking over open hearths we’d STILL be “impacting the environment”.
As I said in a previous post, every living thing “impacts” the environment, and humans aren’t the only creature to do damage (locusts, red tide, virus and bacterial infections, which don’t only harm humans, but other creatures as well, etc).
When I said “swampy little scrub” I was not saying that I didn’t think it “had a right to live” but was asking a question directed at the quote from a link provided which stated something to the effect of “lower green bioplantmass” (sorry too lazy to scroll up). I was asking what the heck they were referring to when they used that term, and went on to make sure I stated that my expertise was NOT in the biological/flora/fauna end of the environmental biz, that the only thing I’d seen in that area, other than tundra, was the “swampy little scrubs”.
And yes, we humans are such “screw ups” why, we should just wipe ourselves off the face of the planet, for the good of mother nature.
No one is saying that our presence here is all sweetness and light, and that we don’t need to improve the way that we do things, etc. In fact, if you will just RAZSZEM, FRAZZZM @#$#@ Read the LINKS I provided, you will see that the oil companies which you so revile, are doing JUST THAT!!
(whew, okay, better now, )
But, are we to continue to live, and go about our lives, we impact the earth (whether or not we are actively involved in oil production, or some other such “evil” and “severly environmentally impacting” pursuit).
(WARNING, tongue in cheek and purposely ridiculous, but should be self-evident, statements to follow)
Futile? Are you a guy or a girl? If you’re a woman, do you wear make-up? Some of it is produced from petroleum byproducts. Do you use plastic in any way? Petroleum byproducts. Have clothing that is dyed? Some, (not all) of that is petroleum byproducts, not to mention the manufacturing processes that go into creating these products.
Do you drive to work? Take the bus? You’re consuming fuel. Do you like to be warm? You’re impacting the environment.
Now, unless you wear homespun from head to toe, only eat plant life (and HEY! that plant has a right to live free from being eaten or worn as clothing by the likes of you, ya know!!), walk everywhere you go (nope, can’t use a bike, unless you made it yourself from twigs and mud, because if it was manufactured, it impacted the environment!!!), do not use ANY type of fuel to stay warm, not even downed wood (creates smoke, which is a pollutant!!!), then you are JUST as much “to blame” for impacting the environment as the rest of we “srewed up” humans, and that includes the “evil” oil empire.