# Sopranos, if you knew them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 7, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563 "2011-04-07T18:56:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/41 "2011-04-11T16:39:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yup. His attitude would have been “You want me to pay up? Make me.” That’s pretty much what happened in the last season when Tony owed money to Hesh. He borrowed from Hesh, then dragged his feet, tried to manipulate Hesh into letting it slide by making fun of him for being cheap, and generally did everything he could to avoid paying up or get Hesh to forget about it all because he just didn’t want to pay. After a while Hesh said to his son “you know, he might have me killed instead of paying,” and that was someone who’d been a friend to Tony and Tony’s father forever. Tony paid up after Hesh’s girlfriend died but he was still a jerk about it. In that same episode Tony said that it would look bad if a mob boss didn’t pay back his debts. If Davey won the poker game, Tony would have paid up. If he didn’t, then word would spread and no one else would play poker with him. ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/42 "2011-04-11T16:40:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Tony could say he would have been crying the blues if Davey had won. But the reality is that if Davey had won and Tony owed him money, Tony wouldn’t have paid. I think Tony would have played it like a Vegas Casino. He would give Davey everything he owed him at the next poker event and then invited him to sit in and play again. Double his winnings of course! And believe me, Davey _would_ play until he lost everything. There are consequences for winning and Tony eventually gets what he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/43 "2011-04-11T17:11:26Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > In that same episode Tony said that it would look bad if a mob boss didn’t pay back his debts. > > If Davey won the poker game, Tony would have paid up. If he didn’t, then word would spread and no one else would play poker with him. That’s a fair point. Although for word to get out, Davey would’ve had to tell somebody that Tony didn’t pay up. Tony didn’t seem to care much about appearances when he wasn’t paying back what he owed Hesh, although that was a lot more money. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/44 "2011-04-11T17:15:01Z")
I think he’d have stiffed Davey and then had him killed if Davey made complaints that started getting around. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/45 "2011-04-11T17:47:27Z")
What I wonder is how someone like him can walk around in public. With all the people he victimized, how hard would it be for one of them to get a rifle and shoot him when he went out in the morning for his newspaper, or when he visited one of his regular hangouts? ---
**Author:** ![Prox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/da6949/32.png) [@Prox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prox)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/46 "2011-04-11T17:47:29Z")
I don’t even think Tony was playing in that poker game - he just lent Davey the money. Early on, Tony didn’t really gamble that much, IIRC. I always got the impression Tony was careful about getting into debts before he became the boss, and that’s why he did so much better than the rest of the crew. Though I do agree if he was in debt to Davey, he never would’ve paid. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/47 "2011-04-11T17:48:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s a fair point. Although for word to get out, Davey would’ve had to tell somebody that Tony didn’t pay up. Tony didn’t seem to care much about appearances when he wasn’t paying back what he owed Hesh, although that was a lot more money. People saw Davey at the card game. If he won a lot of money and suddenly disappeared, the players would start asking questions. Davey’s neighbors wouldn’t care if he went missing, but if you’re playing at a mob card game, then I think you would look out for this sort of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/48 "2011-04-11T17:50:25Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > What I wonder is how someone like him can walk around in public. With all the people he victimized, how hard would it be for one of them to get a rifle and shoot him when he went out in the morning for his newspaper, or when he visited one of his regular hangouts? Isn’t that what happened in the final episode? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Silent\_Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c2a13f/32.png) [@Silent\_Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silent_Kal)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/49 "2011-04-11T18:19:05Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > What I wonder is how someone like him can walk around in public. With all the people he victimized, how hard would it be for one of them to get a rifle and shoot him when he went out in the morning for his newspaper, or when he visited one of his regular hangouts? Artie came pretty close to doing just that after learning Tony was responsible for burning down Artie’s restaurant. Surprisingly, Tony didn’t have him killed. Anyone trying to kill Tony would also have to consider that they would be living out their days in fear of grisly reprisal. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/50 "2011-04-11T18:47:01Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > People saw Davey at the card game. If he won a lot of money and suddenly disappeared, the players would start asking questions. > > Davey’s neighbors wouldn’t care if he went missing, but if you’re playing at a mob card game, then I think you would look out for this sort of stuff. I don’t think he would have killed him, full stop. It would have been dumb for a bunch of reasons, and as violent as Tony was, he generally knew better than that. And he did like Davey, he just resented his happiness. What I’m saying is that if Tony had owed Davey money and decided he didn’t feel like paying up, Davey had no way to make him pay. If Davey had gone to someone else in Tony’s crew and told them Tony owed him money, he’d have been inviting a lot of trouble. At best they would have told him to get lost, at worst word might’ve gotten to Tony and he’d have been kneecapped or something. Socially I guess you’re right that it would have been bad for Tony not to pay a debt from the executive game and maybe it would have been more likely that Tony would have “invited” him to go double or nothing until Tony won. [According to the episode summary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Happy_Wanderer_(The_Sopranos_episode)), Davey lost some money at a small stakes game and couldn’t pay. He then shows up at the executive game, and winds up owing Tony $45,000 when he hadn’t paid back all of what he owed from the other game. So he did owe Tony directly. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/51 "2011-04-11T22:46:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yup. His attitude would have been “You want me to pay up? Make me.” That’s pretty much what happened in the last season when Tony owed money to Hesh. He borrowed from Hesh, then dragged his feet, tried to manipulate Hesh into letting it slide by making fun of him for being cheap, and generally did everything he could to avoid paying up or get Hesh to forget about it all because he just didn’t want to pay. After a while Hesh said to his son “you know, he might have me killed instead of paying,” and that was someone who’d been a friend to Tony and Tony’s father forever. Tony paid up after Hesh’s girlfriend died but he was still a jerk about it. Speaking of which…was her death just a coincidence? Or did they kill her to send a message to Hesh? I never figured that one out. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/52 "2011-04-11T22:54:41Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Speaking of which…was her death just a coincidence? Or did they kill her to send a message to Hesh? I never figured that one out. No, she just died in her sleep of a stroke. No intrigue to be found in that one, which is so unusual it’s almost suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/53 "2011-04-11T23:15:11Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > People saw Davey at the card game. If he won a lot of money and suddenly disappeared, the players would start asking questions. > > Davey’s neighbors wouldn’t care if he went missing, but if you’re playing at a mob card game, then I think you would look out for this sort of stuff. Like they’re always saying on the cop shows, there’s a difference between knowing something happened and being able to prove it. They’re are undoubtedly dozens of people who “disappeared” when they became inconvenient to Tony. And it wouldn’t have a major effect on Tony’s other business deals. If there are people stupid enough to do business with him before, they’d still be stupid enough to ignore one more piece of evidence that it was a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/54 "2011-04-12T01:08:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Like they’re always saying on the cop shows, there’s a difference between knowing something happened and being able to prove it. They’re are undoubtedly dozens of people who “disappeared” when they became inconvenient to Tony. > > And it wouldn’t have a major effect on Tony’s other business deals. If there are people stupid enough to do business with him before, they’d still be stupid enough to ignore one more piece of evidence that it was a bad idea. Yes, but only cops need to prove things. When you do business with the mafia, you can act on what you know is true. Someone playing a high stakes game with the mafia is already taking a lot of chances. Add the possibility that they might get killed if they win and they’re not going to wait around for proof. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/55 "2011-04-12T01:34:29Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > In that same episode Tony said that it would look bad if a mob boss didn’t pay back his debts. > > If Davey won the poker game, Tony would have paid up. If he didn’t, then word would spread and no one else would play poker with him. Different universe, I know, but in Goodfellas, wasn’t Maury of Maury’s Wigs constantly pestering Robert DeNiro for some money he thought he was owed, up until the point that Joe Pesci put an ice pick in the back of his head? ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/56 "2011-04-12T02:15:55Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Different universe, I know, but in Goodfellas, wasn’t Maury of Maury’s Wigs constantly pestering Robert DeNiro for some money he thought he was owed, up until the point that Joe Pesci put an ice pick in the back of his head? DeNiro’s character doesn’t have the same good business sense that Tony does. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/57 "2011-04-12T02:29:46Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > DeNiro’s character doesn’t have the same good business sense that Tony does. Jimmy Conway (DeNiro’s character) was also concerned Maury would blab about the Lufthansa heist (which Maury participated in and was the source of the money he was pestering him about). That’s why he had him killed and–eventually–nearly everyone else involved in the heist (well, that and because Conway wanted a bigger share). ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/58 "2011-04-12T02:48:40Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > You think ? I didn’t see any indication at any point during the following episodes that Bobby’s days were numbered because of that. Unless I missed something. Nah, you didn’t miss anything. It wasn’t a short-term thing. Like when Tony beat up his new driver not too long after getting out of the hospital; just to prove to the rest of the crew that he was still the toughest son-of-a-bitch in the crew, when he perceived that _they_ perceived that he was weak (from being gut-shot by Uncle Junior). **Marley’s** right; being bumped to Under Boss and sent out on a hit was Tony’s short-term revenge. But if there had been a season 7 or 8, Tony might have (I think he would have) seized an opportunity (when one came along) to set Bobby up to “die easy.” Nothing overt, and he would have plenty of plausible deniability, but it would still have happened (IMO). And Bobby being married to Janice would’ve cut no ice with Tony; remember all the times Tony publicly shit all over Janice as a raging “Fuck You!” for all his childhood resentment against her? _Including_ the night at the cabin when he got his ass whupped? Tony would’ve felt bad enough after Bobby died to set Janice up with something, to take care of her, but it would’ve been as much a sop to his own conscience after-the-fact than to actually help Janice; but the end result would be the same. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/59 "2011-04-12T03:01:43Z")
I don’t think that was written in the stars or anything, but I can imagine circumstances under which it could’ve happened. In the Sopranos, the only people with poorer long-term survival than Tony’s enemies were Tony’s friends. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563/60 "2011-04-12T03:06:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [According to the episode summary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Happy_Wanderer_(The_Sopranos_episode)), Davey lost some money at a small stakes game and couldn’t pay. He then shows up at the executive game, and winds up owing Tony $45,000 when he hadn’t paid back all of what he owed from the other game. So he did owe Tony directly. I think you guys are misunderstanding the nature of the executive game. Tony was “the house”. He didn’t have any money directly in the game, he just hosted it. The house took a cut, but the money involved was the player’s money. If Davey had won, Tony wouldn’t have owed him anything. Now, Tony and crew were trying to make extra money off it by spotting Paulie (Silvio?)into the game, but that was a separate deal. As I remember it, Davey owed some of Tony’s crew money. He (Davey) showed up desperate for a chance at the big time and talks Tony into loaning him money for the game. If Davey wins, Tony gets paid back and everything’s kosher (since the money he won would have come from the other players). But he loses. Big. Now he owes Tony AND his crew. When Tony’s crew comes in to bust Davey out of the game (since he shouldn’t be gambling with someone else while he owes them money), Tony declares that, as Boss, his debt is now senior and Davey has to pay him back before anyone else gets paid. But either way, there’s no situation under which Tony ends up in debt to Davey. At worst (for Tony), Davey pays up on the spot and Tony is a little ahead (minus any of Paulie/Silvio/Tony’s money that Davey takes at the table). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sopranos-if-you-knew-them/577563.md?page=4)