# "Sorry for the Way Things Are in China" -- what is John Denver talking about? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 12, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678 "2005-11-12T04:34:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/21 "2014-10-17T06:57:50Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > For those who are surprised that Denver had songs about Nixon and Agnew, remember that in the Sixties, he was a member of the Chad Mitchell Trio, a folk act dedicated in large part to political satire. > > By the late Sixties, the whole folk music/coffee house/hootenanny scene ahd larely disappeared, the Chad Mitchell Trio broke up, and John had to make it on his own with a different sound and a different approach. It got worse. I remember seeing a book called “American Country Music” in a bookstore circa 1978 and the cover picture was John Denver’s big, grinning face. Not a magazine where they might have had him on it one month and Loretta Lynn or Johnny Cash the next; this was a one-shot book, and they chose this folk-pop balladeer as the face of country music. Jeezus. I think Sylvester Stallone played at the Grand Ol’ Opry more than John Denver, and he was only there once! ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/22 "2014-10-17T08:25:46Z")
If this was indeed a song addressed to Annie, I would imagine the reference to China was in response to something that had happened between them, and was a line that she (and only she) would immediately understand. Maybe they had a fight over what a great man Chairman Mao was the night they broke up; who knows? Has anyone ever asked her, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/23 "2014-10-17T09:36:37Z")
For the young ones, there have been waves in music and TV. First, there was disco in general. Donna Summers, KC & the sunshine band and the rest of that wave. At the tail end of that, there was Barry Manilow. He wrote the songs but jumped the shark with Copa Cabana. After that, John Denver came along. John Denver gets disparaged because of his good old boy ah shucks thing, but if you examine his music, he was musically very advanced. For an example, take a look at ‘Some Days are Diamonds…’ A simple song, but lyrically, very nice and musically, far more complicated than John gets credit for. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/24 "2014-10-17T09:40:11Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > If this was indeed a song addressed to Annie, I would imagine the reference to China was in response to something that had happened between them, and was a line that she (and only she) would immediately understand. That would be missing the point of the song. He knows he screwed up, he is desperate to get her back, and in his desperation he apologizes for not only his own transgressions, but for bad things that happened half a world away that are not even remotely his fault. It is song of desperation and the absurd things that desperate people will cop to, to get someone back. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/25 "2014-10-17T10:30:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That would be missing the point of the song. He knows he screwed up, he is desperate to get her back, and in his desperation he apologizes for not only his own transgressions, but for bad things that happened half a world away that are not even remotely his fault. It is song of desperation and the absurd things that desperate people will cop to, to get someone back. Yes, I realize all of that, but the implication is (so far as I see it) China had some special significance for her (or both of them). Otherwise, it’s kind of an odd reference. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/26 "2014-10-17T11:46:08Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Yes, I realize all of that, but the implication is (so far as I see it) China had some special significance for her (or both of them). I’m not seeing how you are reaching that conclusion. China is just a far away place, and in his desperation, he is apologizing for that too. No more. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/27 "2014-10-17T11:57:01Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Yes, I realize all of that, but the implication is (so far as I see it) China had some special significance for her (or both of them). Otherwise, it’s kind of an odd reference. The song was released in mid 1975. That year, China had the [Haicheng earthquake](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Haicheng_earthquake) and the [Shadian massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadian_incident). ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/28 "2014-10-17T14:32:09Z")
IMHO “Sorry” here, just means “I’m sad about” it doesn’t mean “I apologize”. I’ve always heard it as "I’m sad about a lot if things that are wrong with the world, but the thing Im most sad about is that you’re not here with me. That may seem silly in comparison to the problems, but it’s impacting me more. " " … the way things are in china" and “things aren’t what they used to be” are just examples of things people get upset about. They aren’t personally significant to the singer. He could have written: I’m sorry about gas lines; I’m sorry about stagflation; I’m sorry Jimmy Carter’s not doing a better job; I’m sorry about the continued conflict in the Middle East; … [fill in whatever had you vaguely upset in 1975]. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/29 "2014-10-17T16:44:15Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > IMHO “Sorry” here, just means “I’m sad about” it doesn’t mean “I apologize”. In the context of the other lyrics, I think it does: > [@](#): > > "I’m sorry for all the lies I told you, > I’m sorry for the things I didn’t say. > > … > > I’m sorry if I took some things for granted, > I’m sorry for the chains I put on you." All apologies for his own transgressions. Now, he does use another meaning for “I’m sorry” when he says, “More than anything else, I’m sorry for myself” and “I’m sorry things ain’t what they used to be.” which are expressions of sadness, but that is a just poetic counterpoint to all the other occurrences of “I’m sorry”, which were all apologies. The apology about China is just an exaggeration born of his desperation. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/30 "2014-10-17T17:29:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is the weirdest zombie-bump ever. I’ll second that. This must have been one of the first threads I created on SDMB - how weird to see it bumped up almost a decade later. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/31 "2014-10-17T19:47:16Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > It got worse. I remember seeing a book called “American Country Music” in a bookstore circa 1978 and the cover picture was John Denver’s big, grinning face. Not a magazine where they might have had him on it one month and Loretta Lynn or Johnny Cash the next; this was a one-shot book, and they chose this folk-pop balladeer as the face of country music. Jeezus. I think Sylvester Stallone played at the Grand Ol’ Opry more than John Denver, and he was only there once! It was three years earlier, but the phenomenon you describe led directly to [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXgiCr-V9HM). Charlie Rich (and later, his son) have tried to explain it away as Charlie being on medication (which sounds better than drunk)…but I’ve always preferred to believe his actions were sincerely, and justly, motivated. ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/32 "2014-10-17T19:51:32Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > For the young ones, there have been waves in music and TV. First, there was disco in general. Donna Summers, KC & the sunshine band and the rest of that wave. At the tail end of that, there was Barry Manilow. He wrote the songs but jumped the shark with Copa Cabana. > > After that, John Denver came along. Just me being typically anal, but your chronology is a bit off. John Denver “came along” in 1971, long before disco, Donna Summer or Barry Manilow reared their heads. By time Denver had his last significant radio hit (“Fly Away”, 1975), disco was just getting going. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/33 "2014-10-18T00:30:11Z")
Many are overlooking that this song was not written by Denver but was instead written by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, together with Gospel singer J. Moss. I’m sorry for the way things are in China, is a not so subtle reference to “vagina”. As in, I’m sorry about all that other vagina (I shoplifted). As others have said, it is an allusion to Denver’s infidelities. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/34 "2014-10-18T02:48:00Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Many are overlooking that this song was not written by Denver but was instead written by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen, together with Gospel singer J. Moss. ??? :dubious: > [@](#): > > I’m sorry for the way things are in China, is a not so subtle reference to “vagina”. As in, I’m sorry about all that other vagina (I shoplifted). Eh… wha? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678/35 "2014-10-19T21:58:32Z")
Denver could be an odd case as far as “respect” goes. He testified in Congress along with Dee Snider and Frank Zappa against the PMRC of Tipper Gore, Susan Baker and others. Denver stated that a decade earlier idiots thought his song about the great outdoors “Rocky Mountain High” was actually pro drugs. Zappa and Snider got the street cred, Denver was ignored by the the self proclaimed keepers of cool. Around 1975 China was recovering from the Great Leap Forward of the late 1950s that killed 18-32 million and another bout of communist mass insanity and butchering known as the Cultural Revolution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-for-the-way-things-are-in-china-what-is-john-denver-talking-about/330678.md?page=1)