# "Sorry, my suspension of disbelief doesn't stretch that far." (Open Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 21, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603 "2006-06-21T18:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/241 "2006-06-26T17:06:22Z")
[QUOTE=kingpengvin] I can fotrgive the outrinning of rushing water/fire, but if a character suddely ducks into an opening why doesn’t the fire/water follow? I mean the stuff just wants to get out where ever it can. [/QUOTE] This gets me, too. “I’ll just step into this side passage and the wall of water will shoot by me. When it subsides, I’ll come out.” Huh? Of course, you also have the standard shot where the character runs in front of the big object (rock rolling down a hill or whatever) instead of simply taking a step sideways and letting it go by. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/242 "2006-06-26T17:13:46Z")
[QUOTE=simster] Ok… I’m not going to dispute/argue with you on this becuase you said “This is my belief”… but I do not know where in the Star Trek Universe you come up with any of that. Some evidence against your comments would be : Sisko’s dad runs a resturaunt… patrons visit this resturaunt. Picard’s family runs a vinyard… patrons ‘purchase’ his wine. [/quote] I think those are both hobbies, in the same sense that a career in Starfleet is a hobby–done for the pleasure of the effort, not for the financial renumeration. > [@](#): > > In ‘All Good Things’, it’s mentioned that the family ‘finaly’ purchased/aquired a replicator… meaning that until then, they used ‘real’ food stuffs that were aquired (presumably) from means other than growing it themselves. And in that case I think it was a non-Earth family being referred to. I think we’re meant to believe that it’s specifically on EARTH–and probably Vulcan, Betazed, Andor, and the other major UFP worlds–that poverty and other failings of the twentieth century have been eradicated. On Bajor and other such worlds, particularly the colonies, earning a living can still be a trial. Consider Sisko’s explosion when he receives what he considers a ridiculously impractical order from Starfleet for dealing with the Maquis: _ **Sisko** : Do they think they are dealing with saints? You know what the problem is, Major? **Kira** : Sir? **Sisko** : The problem is EARTH! **Kira** : Earth? **Sisko** : On Earth, there no poverty, no crime, no war. Look out the window at Starfleet Command, and you’re looking at paradise. It’s EASY to be a saint in paradise. But the Maquis don’t live in paradise. **Kira** : (smiling slightly) Amen._ ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/243 "2006-06-26T17:15:32Z")
Well, my brother makes beer. Quite a bit, actually, more than he can drink for himself. He gives it away, takes it to parties, brings it out for visitors. He doesn’t sell any of it, and it costs him money for the raw ingredients. Why does he do it? Some people throw elaborate dinner parties and serve expensive food. Their guests aren’t expected to pay for anything, at most the guests bring a bottle of wine that will probably be consumed at the party. So the Picard family vinyard and the Sisko family restaurant are the same thing. You can’t “buy” a bottle of Picard family wine, what would you pay for it with? You can only get that wine if the Picard family gives you the wine…for their own reasons, similar to the reasons my brother might give you a bottle of his beer. And you can’t buy a dinner at the Sisko family restaurant, any more than you can buy a seat at a dinner party thrown by my wife’s cousin. If you want a reservation you ASK for a reservation, and Sisko’s dad will give you one…if he feels like it. As for “earning a living”…what would you DO to earn a living? I know if all my basic needs were taken care of for free I certainly wouldn’t “work” at my current job any more. But I would spend a lot of time here writing analyses of economics in the Star Trek universe for free…because I like doing it. ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/244 "2006-06-26T17:46:17Z")
All this talk of “Star Trek” reminds me of the _ **original** _ original pilot episode, which spelled out that illusion-casting breakthroughs would lead human society to collapse – because it’s entirely too addictive, having your way with a green-skinned slavegirl when you aren’t living out some grand adventure or just taking it easy on a quiet picnic. In the days of Kirk and Spock and McCoy, the only death penalty left is for visiting Talos IV – because their culture is now in ruins, and the Federation would surely be next if that stuff started spreading. TNG? Holodecks. That’s it. We’re through. We just haven’t realized it yet. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/245 "2006-06-26T17:58:51Z")
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat] Of course, you also have the standard shot where the character runs in front of the big object (rock rolling down a hill or whatever) instead of simply taking a step sideways and letting it go by. [/QUOTE] Parodied excellently in My Name is Earl when he stands there unable to move out of the way of a rolling bowling ball. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/246 "2006-06-26T18:08:36Z")
[QUOTE=ululate] All this talk of “Star Trek” reminds me of the _ **original** _ original pilot episode, which spelled out that illusion-casting breakthroughs would lead human society to collapse – because it’s entirely too addictive, having your way with a green-skinned slavegirl when you aren’t living out some grand adventure or just taking it easy on a quiet picnic. In the days of Kirk and Spock and McCoy, the only death penalty left is for visiting Talos IV – because their culture is now in ruins, and the Federation would surely be next if that stuff started spreading. TNG? Holodecks. That’s it. We’re through. We just haven’t realized it yet. [/QUOTE] Slight difference… with the Talosians you didn’t ‘know’ you were in an illusion.. with the Holodecks, presumably you do… (Which does not prevent the addictive qualities of it) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/247 "2006-06-26T19:02:26Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] As for “earning a living”…what would you DO to earn a living? I know if all my basic needs were taken care of for free I certainly wouldn’t “work” at my current job any more. [/QUOTE] I think there will always be a market for a good massage therapist–or a prostitute. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/248 "2006-06-26T19:27:28Z")
[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat] I think there will always be a market for a good massage therapist–or a prostitute. [/QUOTE] What about when you can get that same service- a _better_ service, with everything you could possibly want, no matter how perverted- for free in the nearest holodeck. If we assume that everyone has access to replicators and holodeck technology, there is absolutely no incentive (nor, for that matter, need) for people to work in anything outside Starfleet- and that only because it comes into contact with civilisations that don’t have or want said technology. However, I think that Starfleet is clearly far too heavily regulated, with too much authority over civillians (you’re a civillian with access to any good or service you could conceivably desire, for free. Do you listen to a bunch of overgrown boy scouts in silly uniforms?) to be anything but a military. It therefore follows that Starfleet is the only group of people who are actually motivated to gain authority (the one thing replicators can’t give you), and, I think we can extrapolate, the only government (since we never see any form of competing organisation, and the first thing any such group looking to gain authority over their fellow man would do would be to eliminate their rivals). Lacking any ability to incentivise the population to follow them, there are two possible reasons for why they are obeyed: either the population recognises them as the ideal authority, and follows them out of good will, or they are coerced to do so by the threat of violence. So, the Federation is a communist (at best), coercive (at worst) totalitarian military dictatorship. _This_ is the ideal future that Rodenberry envisaged? It is certainly the logical outcome of the data he has given us. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/249 "2006-06-26T19:32:54Z")
Yes, but what do you pay the massage therapist or prositute WITH? Sure, there will be plenty of demand for prostitutes. But how much supply will there be when the prostitute’s basic needs are all provided for? There won’t be any crack whores or streetwalkers left, they’ll have all the crack, food, and shelter they need. There will be high-end prostitutes…but the average Joe isn’t going to have anything a high-end prostitute WANTS. The only things he could give her would come out of a replicator, and she can get those things out of a replicator herself. A high-end prostitute will prosititute herself to get invited to the best parties, mingle with the best people, and be seen doing the best things. And that isn’t exactly protitution, more like being a groupie. You sleep with Mr. Big not because of what Mr. Big can give you, but because he’s Mr. Big and you’re a nobody and fame is sexually transmitted. You don’t want Mr. Big’s material goods, you want to vicariously experience his social status…which can’t be bought for any price. What this all means is that really talented people are the only ones who can create work of value, the average Joe might not be able to do ANY meaningful work, or at least any work they do isn’t going to be compensated for in any way except prestige. Like contributing to Wikipedia, or here. Contributions to Wikipedia are worthwhile, but nobody’s going to PAY you to do it, you only do it because you like to. Of course, all this depends on a cornucopia of material goods spewing out of those replicators. Money is just a way to efficiently allocate scarce goods and services. In reality, money would probably still exist even if replicators make most present day uses for money obsolete since it would make exchange of services more efficient. But there are plenty of examples from history of economies with no money…barter only, gift economies, etc. These aren’t as efficient ways of exchanging goods and services as monetary economies, but efficiency isn’t everything. And the abolition of money doesn’t mean that scarce goods and services don’t get exchanged, they still can be exchanged. But they could be exchanged the same way favors and duties are exchanged among friends and family. I drove your mother to the doctor last week, so it’s your turn to wash the car. Bob invited us to his party last week, so let’s have him over this week. Susan took the kids to the movies yesterday, so we’ll take her kids to the park tomorrow. So there’s still a market for backrubs and oral favors, but you wouldn’t be able to buy them with money. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2006, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/250 "2006-06-26T19:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Clam] If we assume that everyone has access to replicators and holodeck technology, there is absolutely no incentive (nor, for that matter, need) for people to work in anything outside Starfleet- and that only because it comes into contact with civilisations that don’t have or want said technology. [/QUOTE] This is a really cool discussion, but it’s starting to spin off from the OP, so I created a new thread to discuss the Star Trek economy and other post-scarcity economies [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=377316). Come join the fun! ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/251 "2006-06-27T10:16:13Z")
250 posts and nobody has said “James Bond’s invisible car” yet? I mean its an invisible freaking car fer chrissakes. ---
**Author:** ![ululate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/59ef9b/32.png) [@ululate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ululate)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/252 "2006-06-27T11:29:15Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] 250 posts and nobody has said “James Bond’s invisible car” yet? I mean its an invisible freaking car fer chrissakes. [/QUOTE] I can buy the invisible car. I can’t buy the scene where he hides behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/253 "2006-06-27T11:46:23Z")
As for the invisibility failing and then the self repair mechanism kicking in … words fail me. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/254 "2006-06-27T14:07:07Z")
[QUOTE=Peter Morris] 250 posts and nobody has said “James Bond’s invisible car” yet? I mean its an invisible freaking car fer chrissakes. [/QUOTE] That reminds me of the car he is able to adroitly maneuver around a \*house built of ice \* in the Halle Berry picture. A house built of ice? No problem. Taking the curves in complete control? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/255 "2006-06-27T14:21:00Z")
[QUOTE=mobo85] Many cartoons and/or children’s shows have characters (usually villians) who, in an attempt to trick the hero, disguise themselves. Although it should be patently obvious who they are, they don’t realize who it’s supposed to be until the disguse is lifted (usually by a piece accidentially falling off). [/QUOTE] On occasion, Batman comics would have him wearing some disguise over his costume – cowl and all. ---
**Author:** ![dbuzman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de0a6/32.png) [@dbuzman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dbuzman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/256 "2006-06-27T14:43:44Z")
[QUOTE=Diceman] Sorry, but I’ve never been able to buy this idea either. Humans are naturally greedy and naturally lazy. It has long been known that there is a direct correlation between the amount of effort a person will put into something and the reward he expects to receive. [/QUOTE] Don’t forget they have replicators. When just about everyone has a device that can make food/drink and other things like diamonds or gold etc., a money based economy would probably fail and be replaced by something else. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/257 "2006-06-27T15:10:53Z")
[QUOTE=KJ] Now that somebody mentioned Star Trek… I can believe in a giant starship with dozens of decks full of people zipping through space at the speed of light. I can believe in aliens that all happen to look like people wearing lots of makeup. But one thing I can never suspend my disbelief enough to accept is the idea that there’s no money in the future. Humankind has evolved past the point where we need material possessions? Uh huh. Right. No, I guarantee you that even if money were completely phased out officially, something else that serves the exact same purpose would be created, replicators or not. And there’s no television in the future? Give me a break. [/QUOTE] First, the television. Except for a handful of quirky aficianados, like Paris, there is no audience for “television” as we know it. Probably because folks have access to holodecks, or at least something close enough to it. I think that the complete disappearance of baseball from human society (again, except for a few fan-atics, such as Sisko) is much more of a strain on believability, even given 3 or 4 centuries elapsed. So much of human society and values have remained the same-- even World War 3 has apparently had relatively little disruptive effect as a whole. Rather than becoming an antique item baseball would have evolved into different forms. At the very least little kids and teens would still be playing some form or forms of it. And I’m not even a sports fan, BTW. Money, however is definitely a matter of contradiction. As stated in “First Contact” by Picard, people have gone beyond the cash chase. (When he first responded to the present day woman about things noty being the way she anticipated, I expected him to make a measured statement, indicating that the situation with finacial pursuit was so radically different that it would be hard to explain to her while standing on one foot. After all, Gene Rodenberry was usually very careful to leave Earth’s economic system vague through non-statement. Instead, Picard flatly states that acquiring money is not anyone’s personal goal in life.) He also says as much in the Romulan/revived frozen folks episode from the first season. Against this, we have all the references to “gold-pressed Latinum” especially in DS9. Now, one might think that such is just the fetish of Ferengis, and other non-human species. But in the “Voyager” pilot, Chetokay (sp?) asks Paris whether Latinum was his goal in aiding Janeway. I doubt the question would have come up in a society where the cash chase was so thoroughly eliminated as Picard stated. * * * True Blue Jack ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/258 "2006-06-27T15:33:16Z")
What the hell is gold pressed latinum good for anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/259 "2006-06-27T15:39:48Z")
[QUOTE=BMalion] What the hell is gold pressed latinum good for anyway? [/QUOTE] Apparently (going on posts in this thread) it can’t be replicated, which makes it a good currency medium for things that are actually valuable (like land, people, or energy, I suppose). ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603/260 "2006-06-27T16:56:51Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] The South Vietnamese were (ostensibly) on our side, so having dealings with a Vietnamese person _per se_ wouldn’t be unusual enough to note. It wasn’t that he was toking with a Vietnamese person. It was that he was toking with a North Vietnamese person. [/QUOTE] Got it. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-my-suspension-of-disbelief-doesnt-stretch-that-far-open-spoilers/361603.md?page=14)