And how are they going to learn to use it properly? With a public library full of computer books from the '80s? Also, you still keep talking like Linux is one distro. Why can’t there be a distro “to fit their lower-class needs” and another one for pretentious ubergeeks like yourself?
I think you meant “community” rather than “company,” but either way, no, it has not. Otherwise, why would people be making programs to use Windows drivers in Linux?
I mean, it’s like you want things to be harder. Again, I ask you, how does an easy-to-use distro threaten your Slackware and why shouldn’t users have the choice?
neutron star: That about multiple distros is an exceedingly good point that I neglected to make. Linux is all about freedom, and that freedom has spawned multiple distros that use the same (or mostly the same) kernel.
For example, there are full Linux distros that fit on a floppy and do useful things, like fix damaged computers. With tomsrtbt, you get a full OS that loads itself completely into RAM during bootup and can then be used to do everything from fixing a filesystem to administering a remote machine over a network. It fits on a floppy, so you can carry a real OS around in a shirt pocket, and will work on damned near every PC based around a 32-bit Intel chip or clone. If you chose, you could make tomsrtbt your primary OS.
On the other end is Lindows. Based around Debian, it is a full-fledged Linux distro that breaks a lot of conventions. Aside from being preinstalled on most machines you’ll use it on, it includes a software suite that is very homey to Windows veterans. The default mode is not the command line, but a GUI that’s built to be usable to Windows-experienced people with minimal retraining. But you still can get a command line, and you have a full suite of tools if you decide to fire it up. I’d never use Lindows — I cut my teeth on RedHat, and I want something more techie for my next Linux distro — but I’d recommend it without hesitation to a non-techie or a semi-techie who wants to try Linux.
There’s no reason for me to know about Lindows, any more than there’s a reason for a Lindows fan to know about tomsrtbt. Linux can easily support a thousand different classes of user with a thousand (or a hundred thousand… or a million… ) different distros. That is the primary advantage of Linux and that is why Microsoft is so scared: Windows will never be that flexible. And once people have a taste of an OS designed around them, why should they go back to using an OS designed around a corporation?
Stallman intended GNU for hackers, not for the general public as it is. Ideally the general public would come to espouse hacker values. Writing hand-holding documentation and hiding the lower parts of the OS from users will not make people come to love the hacker lifestyle.
Why should I be worried about proposed US legislation? I’m in Europe, where Linux is increasingly used and loved by government agencies. Fuck the USA.
I hate to break it to you, but Stallman is a kook. Withholding documentation won’t make people “love the hacker lifestyle”, it’ll just make them stick with Windows.
I’m still trying to get to grips with Linux…(see earlier post)…what I find most frustrating is online guides that begin ‘in the middle’, assuming that the user has a certain setup, and giving no indication of what to do otherwise…and then labelling it a “howto”!!! And no, I’m not just talking about amateur sites.
The first couple of years I used linux I must have erased and re-installed it a dozen times. The hacking lifestyle is great if you have no other work to do. But computers are there to make your job easier. What is the point of tweaking something for 2 weeks just so it can run slightly faster than another product? You’ve just lost 2 weeks of time instead of the extra 2 minutes the other product would take. One of my collegues (PhD physics) was talking to our other coworker, a computer guy, about Fortran and C++ developer studios in linux. The guy was talking about how to configure EMACS for syntax highlighting, integrate it with a debugger, set up linking, etc … Finally Physics guy got frustrated because he just wanted to get to the physics. He went back to Microsoft Developer Studio.
That being said, I love using linux. I run slackware and access a 500 node alpha processor beowulf cluster for numerical work. I don’t use KDE or Gnome, I’m a major Blackbox fan.
The best way to get into linux, is just fiddle with it when you’re in the mood. As soon as those veins start throbbing in your neck, switch back to Windows. Gradually, you’ll figure out the various problems and migrate over fully.
No it doesn’t. Or rather, no more suckier than Windows.
That most people feel Windows is somehow better on the desktop is that they were tainted by Windows. In other words, they are predisposed toward the idiosyncrasies of Windows caused by prior usage.
Hear, hear for Blackbox. I tried it on a whim soon after I started with Linux and now I despise having clutter on my desktop. Every once in a while I try to make KDR, GNOME or IceWM a little more to my liking, but I just can’t get past how much I like the minimalism of Blackbox and having everything available to me with a right-click menu.
Back to the topic: Linux may not be for everyone, but it’s for more people than you might think. Mandrake, RedHat (well, not anymore) and SuSe are extremely full featured and simple to use. I say just as simple as Windows.
Debian and Slackware have always had the reputation of being difficult for beginners. They have come a long way, true, but it doesn’t take long to realize that they are harder for beginners.
And Windows isn’t as intuitive as everyone thinks. How many threads are there on these boards about seemingly simple things like changing the default view, associating file types or removing applications?
Anyone tried to fix a registry entry without help? How about with help? Intuitive or cryptic, you be the judge.
How about fixing corrupted programs? You do have the installation CD that came with your system so you can just extract it from that CAB file and what do you mean you don’t know what I’m talking about?
Windows isn’t intuitive. It just has the advantage of numbers. Linux is catching up in that category.
I don’t know what you’re talking about, but you don’t seem to know what you’re talking about, either.
Stallman intended GNU for everyone. “Users who know nothing about computers” are addressed in the GNU Manifesto (http://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html) and the overview of the GNU project provided by GNU states (http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-history.html) “We also want to provide software for users who are not computer experts.” In the GNU project, any errors, and in fact anything that isn’t clear, in the documentation is regarded as a bug, and they ask people to report them as bugs immediately.
I’ve never had a problem installing Linux. Ever. Everything has worked fine the first time, and would work fine this time too, if only I could find my CD burner drivers so I could get the ISOs to CD.
Go to www.justlinux.com. It’s for newbies, has help file archives and a forum using vBulletin, just like SDMB so you’ll feel right at home.
I tried Redhat a few years back, but couldn’t get some things working. I had some weird non-standard stuff. I wanted to give it another try, so about 2 months ago I downloaded the ISO’s for 9.0.
Install was a breeze, but when you start trying to do stuff with it, it gets more difficult. Most of the difficulty comes from not knowing what I’m doing. That’s the main reason I’m using it though is to learn.
I do get quite a sense of accomplishment as I get more and more things working. I would have to agree that it’s not for your average user who just wants to play games, surf the web & send e-mail.
re: Una’s problem. I had the same kind of thing but with a CRT, not an LCD. I even got the nVidia drivers loaded properly but still couldn’t get above 800 X 600. Drove me nuts. Finally figured out it was my monitor. Linux couldn’t probe it properly so it put in some default values. I looked up the spec’s for my monitor & manually put them in on the cofiguration screen & taa daa…it worked. Don’t know if this is any help with an LCD, but it could be something to check on.
UnuMondo: You think the corporations in the US won’t shove a CBDTPA analogue through the EU? You think the governments and extra-governmental agencies wouldn’t accept it? Shit, read some fucking history. It will come to you and you will be up shit creek if it happens after the US has already been tainted with it. Asia is the only place it might not come, but Asia has its own problems.
Well I got it working, but what a pain in the ass. I downloaded the latest nvidia driver, and after installing it, needed to edit some free86 config thingee.
I upped the res to 1024 x 768 and now the screen in offset. If I fix it (by adjusting it on my monitor) then my Windows XP will be off!
Initial reseach turned up something called “xvidtune” which might be able to remedy the problem.
/off to find out what “xvidtune” is and how the fuck to use it.
I still need to install KDE as gnome is fugly.
Linux still sucks, but is getting slightly better.
I tried xvidtune, but I chickened out after the warning about blowing up my card or monitor (not literally but you know what I mean).
I used the adjustments on my monitor and made Linux look nice hoping I can find a utility for Windows. I booted into XP and for some reason everything was fine.
I installed KDE as well. Now I need a mount point for my windows stuff.
As long as I don’t have any problems, perhaps Linux ain’t so bad.
Thanks everyone for all their suggestions, and Ven if I have any problems in the future, you’ll be the first person I harass.
Yesterday I installed my Ipaq handheld computer with microsoftr pocket pc onto my windows xp professional. I installed the software via my memorystick. Then I synchronised my mail, then printed it out with my bluetooth printer, synchronised the adresses in my contacts and then transferred them to my nokia phone so I had all my contact phonenumbers. Oh and I did it all wireless.
And now I’m going to shoot some bad germans online with my shoot them up game that runs perfectly under windows xp.
TRY TO DO THAT WITH LINUX
Linux seems to be so good but for everything your do you have to look up the code to get it working for the first time.
Thats why I wont suggest my Granny to install Linux.
Besides and you can correct me if I’m wrong, only the nerds here at the office are always the ones praising linux. They can never tell you whats so good about linux, no they always trash microsoft. Its reliable you say? ok if I just install a fresh windows and just install office, its also going to be stable. its all the extra’s that you cant find in linux that make it unstable.
Why the hell are you always defending linux, are you sharesholders?
Except that it does. If we are ever to have a meaningful alternative MonopolySoft, if people are ever to be able to come up with new innovative desktop protocols and concepts without having to worry about having them embraced and extended to become just another part of the Monopoly there is a need for desktop Linux for “idiots”.
What other alternative is there - Mac. Please! Expensive hardware, marketing based on neo-hipster, 1999 style dot-commish “lifestyle” crap (you are special, you are hip, you are one of the in-the-know, the digerati) and no real attempt to conquer other realms like embedded devices, palmtops, realtime or anything else that doesn’t sit on your desk at home (OK so they’ve got the iPod). Let’s face it people, right now it’s Linux or just STFU and get back to work in Mr. Bill’s salt mine. And if Linux is going to go anywhere it has to take the desktop space and that means making it work for idiots too.
That said, I want to make some of the obligatory remarks about the installations issues. First of all, installation would not be an issue if it were not an issue What I mean is this - how many of you installed your own Windows system? If it’s a home computer you bought in the last couple years you probably never installed it at all. If you had to do a reinstall because of some disaster you had an OEM version of Windows that was tailored to your specific machine. As Linux becomes more popular you will see more of this kind of thing. Machines that come with Linux already on the hard drive and all the devices working. If you need to reinstall you will have a custom Linux disk that is already set up to know about your particular hardware. RedHat, for instance, allows a “kickstart” install that can be done completely unattended if the exact state of the machine is known in advance. Similar things should be available for other distros.
Secondly, for all the people who complain about Linux not being able to find your sound card or whatever, you need to keep in mind that most of the drivers for Linux are written by reverse engineering proprietary drivers that are not provided in source form. This is a lot more difficult than writing a driver from a manufacturer’s spec using his software development kit. This is changing though as many manufacturers are releasing either their own drivers or are lending hardware to coders to create the drivers for them. As this continues Linux will support more and more hardware without glitches. My experience has been that 95% of complaints about Linux installs stem from hardware recognition problems.
In a perfect world the CBDTPA would go down in flames because it is an egregious assault on our freedom and an absurd attack on technological progress. In the real world where money often dictates whose rights can be trampled and whose cannot it will probably fail once people come to understand just how many very wealthy corporations will be very pissed off by the implications of the law. In other words, getting Linux more broadly accepted in the corporate environment means that legal threats to it and to open source software more generally will have less chance to succeed.
Also, by typing Cntr-Alt-{Numeric +} you can cycle through the various resolutions that the X installer tool created for you to try them out in advance. And yes, the + has to be the one on the numeric keypad IIRC.
