# Sorry, SHAKES, but yes, you ARE a bigot **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2004, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925 "2004-07-13T17:22:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/121 "2004-07-16T04:45:52Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Congratulations on your wedding and that they’re actually recording them now. > > I love Oregon and only hope that here in Corvallis and the rest of the state that equal marriage laws become the norm. Thanks, **Mockingbird.** ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/122 "2004-07-16T11:44:46Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Sol, as a member of the foam-at-the-mouth set, I’d have to say that I really, really respect you and in no way consider you an Uncle Tom. > [@SolGrundy](#): > > Well, thanks. And I’ll say that you shouldn’t get discouraged about your post earlier or think that it’s a waste of time – the best you can do is respond to what people are saying, and put it out there to make of what they will. Sometimes it helps you more than anyone else, just to be able to organize your thoughts… You guys are the reason I love this place. I came into the SDMB without an opinion on same-sex marriage, beyond vague annoyance at the politicization of what seemed “private stuff.” On learning more from lurking in threads like this one, I drifted toward the sense that “this stuff ain’t right” (Defense of Marriage Act, Constitutional amendments), and gained a new resolve to vote against any proposed amendment that comes my way (it looks like I’ll get my chance, here in Michigan). I saw it as a justice and fairness issue. From reading your posts, and those of other really passionate and lucid posters, I’m now in the put-up-a-lawn-sign-and-write-letters camp. That’s a huge step for someone who has always been vaguely unaligned as far as politics goes - I would vote, I would try to stay informed, but I would never advocate. That’s changed, for better or worse. It’s a full-blown Civil Rights issue, and I’ll be damned if I’ll live in a society that claims the power to decide who gets to enjoy all our God-given rights without speaking up about it. Your posts - even the really, um, “intemperate” ones - have given me the words behind the vague feeling of unease I’ve been feeling about these social engineering efforts on the part of neo-cons and their ilk. I suppose you’ve helped frame the issue for me - and for that, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/123 "2004-07-16T11:47:41Z")
> [@Genghis Bob](#): > > It’s a full-blown Civil Rights issue, and I’ll be damned if I’ll live in a society that claims the power to decide who gets to enjoy all our God-given rights without speaking up about it. You are so right. If even one man is not free, then no man is free. Whatever principle _allows_ for the oppression of even one citizen hangs over us all. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/124 "2004-07-16T16:56:57Z")
Oh, Shakes… I have the crow right here. How do you want it prepared? Your larynx removal is scheduled at 2pm. Glad to be of assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/125 "2004-07-16T19:01:21Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Oh, Shakes… > > I have the crow right here. How do you want it prepared? > > Your larynx removal is scheduled at 2pm. > > Glad to be of assistance. 0 Fair enough, I’ll eat crow now and shut the fuck up. Still can’t say I can embrace the whole gay thing though but that’s my problem. So yeah gay isn’t anything but normal. Left handed right handed I’ll concede to that now. Good day folks… ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/126 "2004-07-16T19:41:37Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > 0 > > Fair enough, > > I’ll eat crow now and shut the fuck up. > > Still can’t say I can embrace the whole gay thing though but that’s my problem. > > So yeah gay isn’t anything but normal. Left handed right handed I’ll concede to that now. > > Good day folks… Oh fuck no bud. You said this: > [@SHAKES](#): > > Now if some one wants to SHOW me or give links to, that gay is indeed what nature intended or that there is some sort of biological purpose towards being gay; then I’ll eat crow and shut the fuck up. That was done for you. Now, in holding up your end of the deal, I don’t think anyone would agree that eating crow would include coming back and saying “Still can’t say I can embrace the whole gay thing.” Would you care to explain that? Do you still think there’s a “Gay agenda”? If not, what do you mean by embracing “the whole gay thing”? Do you think we want you to go give anal to Mr. Swanson down the street? ---
**Author:** ![little\_bit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@little\_bit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/little_bit)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/127 "2004-07-16T19:47:32Z")
Hey, SHAKES… If having an answer to the _reason_ for gays would help, I’ll make one up for you. How about population control. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/128 "2004-07-17T04:25:14Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > That was done for you. Now, in holding up your end of the deal, I don’t think anyone would agree that eating crow would include coming back and saying “Still can’t say I can embrace the whole gay thing.” Cisco, you know damn well if I didn’t come back here to concede everybody would start whining" oh look, I guess he too afraid to come back and fess up." I came back, I conceded. Now I’m through fucking argueing over this. And No I’m not going to explain my personal feelings to you. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/129 "2004-07-17T04:44:04Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > And No I’m not going to explain my personal feelings to you. Then why did you start the fucking thread in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/130 "2004-07-17T05:00:51Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > Cisco, you know damn well if I didn’t come back here to concede everybody would start whining" oh look, I guess he too afraid to come back and fess up." > > I came back, I conceded. Now I’m through fucking argueing over this. > > And No I’m not going to explain my personal feelings to you. Dude now I’m fucking drunk so it’s my turn to say that you might not understand what I’m sayin’. Anyway man, you can’t fucking assume that this group or that group has some kind of “agenda.” Jesus man, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and defended you in this thread. Be intellectually honest and admit that there’s nothing wrong with being gay. It’s not going to hurt you or your grandparents or anyone else you know. It’s a basic fucking human right endowed upon everyone born on this planet to do WHATEVER THEY WANT as long as they don’t hurt someone else. Homosexuals don’t hurt anyone because of their homosexuality. If they lie or cheat or steal it’s not because of their sexual affiliation. You can’t dismiss a group because of an individual. I hope I don’t regret this post in the morning. I’ve had too manu Guinesses and I’m hoping this makes sense. Just let go of your preconceptions bro. ---
**Author:** ![Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f04885/32.png) [@Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ninja_Pizza_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/131 "2004-07-17T18:12:05Z")
> [@SHAKES](#): > > And No I’m not going to explain my personal feelings to you. Then I guess no one has to explain their personal feeling that you’re an asshole, either. OK. ---
**Author:** ![Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f04885/32.png) [@Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ninja_Pizza_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/132 "2004-07-17T18:13:29Z")
> [@Ninja Pizza Guy](#): > > Then I guess no one has to explain their personal feeling that you’re an asshole, either. OK. Oops, that was supposed to be “bigot” instead of asshole. So much for preview. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/133 "2004-07-17T18:39:49Z")
Eh, I think you could reasonably make a case that bigot is a subset of asshole. You know, like bugs and insects. All bigots are assholes, but not all assholes are bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f04885/32.png) [@Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ninja_Pizza_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/134 "2004-07-17T20:21:00Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Eh, I think you could reasonably make a case that bigot is a subset of asshole. You know, like bugs and insects. All bigots are assholes, but not all assholes are bigots. True, but I haven’t read enough of **SHAKES** posts to know if he’s a full-blown asshole. I **have** read enough to know he falls square in the bigot sub-set of asshole. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/135 "2004-07-18T04:08:48Z")
So for some reason I feel compelled to respond to a comment in [this thread in MPSIMS](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=266628). I’m pretty sure it was in reference to this thread, so here’s as good a place as any. > [@bodswood](#): > > One of the 25 to start a Pit thread asserting the bigotry of A, followed by 24 others telling A that redemption lies through writing a self-criticism. > > SolGrundy to give A a hug and share his life story some. > > …before telling him to f\*\*\* off some. What was _that_ all about? This, plus comments I’ve heard elsewhere, make me sound bi-polar or something, when I thought I’d been pretty clear all along. Have you never seen the movie _Roadhouse_? I try to live my life by the moral code expressed by Patrick Swayze’s character in that film: “Be nice. Until it’s time to not be nice.” I wasn’t giving out “hugs.” I don’t like to see _anybody_ getting dogpiled. It doesn’t do anybody any good except as catharsis. I don’t like seeing discussions devolve into name-calling. I don’t like seeing people make completely dismissive comments as if the other person weren’t even worth listening to. And I don’t like seeing people make assumptions about other posters based on their previous history. I’ve stepped up to defend **spectrum** , and **SHAKES** , and even you, **bodswood** , when it seemed like you were getting a bad rap. If I get the sense that somebody is just spouting off bigotry or racism or homophobia or just general hatred, and he won’t listen to reason, I’ll tell him to go fuck himself. If I get the sense that my telling him about myself will help enlighten him, I’ll say what I can. If I get the sense that he’s asking reasonable questions (e.g. “Is homosexuality a pre-wired biological condition or is it determined by the environment?”) but asking them in an offensive way (e.g. “What can we do about the gay-sickness or whatever you want to call it?”) then I’ll try to meet him halfway. **But** , as soon as I get the sense that I’m being patronized, or treated as some scientific curiosity, or that I’m being expected to make more of my personal life public than I care to, or that I’m being manipulated into an argument, or that you’re ignoring me or refusing to show me respect and stop saying offensive things, _then_ I’ll come down and go tell you to fuck yourself. It’s just easier to assume that people aren’t completely unredeemable assholes until they prove otherwise. > [@Genghis Bob](#): > > You guys are the reason I love this place. I came into the SDMB without an opinion on same-sex marriage, beyond vague annoyance at the politicization of what seemed “private stuff.” > […] > That’s changed, for better or worse. It’s a full-blown Civil Rights issue, and I’ll be damned if I’ll live in a society that claims the power to decide who gets to enjoy all our God-given rights without speaking up about it. Your posts - even the really, um, “intemperate” ones - have given me the words behind the vague feeling of unease I’ve been feeling about these social engineering efforts on the part of neo-cons and their ilk. I suppose you’ve helped frame the issue for me - and for that, thanks. Cool. Then I guess there’s some use to all this talk, anyway. And though my posting history says otherwise, I’d really like all this to be “private stuff.” You’re not going to see me in a Pride parade any time soon. But the least I can do is describe how things are for me and have been for me. Hopefully, it can help people at least understand what they’re fighting against instead of making assumptions based on what they see on _Queer Eye_ and _Will and Grace_. Ideally, it can help other gay guys out there avoid being uncomfortable with it for so long so they don’t end up like me, waiting until their early 30’s to be able to come out. {{{hugs!!!}}} ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/136 "2004-07-18T04:46:50Z")
**Sol** , I’m not going to quote that marathon post – but it alone would make me proud to have encountered you here. Just what needed to be said, both in compassion and in staunchness, and well written to boot. Thank you, brother. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/137 "2004-07-18T05:55:19Z")
Ladies and Gentlemen, We have just witnessed the very reason why fighting ignorance is doomed to failure. The very nature of ignorance is rooted in a belief system. Sadly, belief systems, founded in faith, are impossible to break. I am not speaking of religion, rather any belief at all. If you “believe” in anything, it clouds your objective analytical ability to make sound judgments. The end result, for any debate against a person who “believes” anything, is that after being shot down with every logical argument, they will simply say “this is my belief”. Even if they acknowledge many facts in order to concede to those who purported evidence contrary to their beliefs, they remain the most evil and vile face of ignorance. They are those people, who after exposed to truth, logic and reality, choose to hold onto their beliefs like they are a life preserver from the Titanic. Sadly, this is the VAST majority of humanity. It is very depressing and it works on both sides of the political pendulum, in all denominations of religion and in every realm of Sociological discussion. For some reason, the smart, the dumb, the rich, the poor; all must cling on to some “belief system”. There are those who can rise above it, but they are typically shouted down by the “masses” of believers out there. Sadly, I doubt we will ever have a society guided by those who have been able to walk away from the simple mindedness of a belief. In the great words of a professor at a University who still teaches today: “You are in college now and if education is your goal, beliefs should be a thing of your past. I for one have only one belief. This is to believe that one should have no beliefs. Beliefs only cloud your objective analytical ability.” This is said at the beginning of every class and 80% of the students immediately peg him to be a “liberal atheist” from the start. They crawl into their little protective shells and start formulating the defenses necessary to protect the core beliefs that they have held onto so that they can bring meaning to their lives. They miss the entire point behind his statements just as SHAKES missed everything here; and thus, will continue to prance down the road of ignorance they hath laid before them. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/138 "2004-07-18T07:43:01Z")
Great post, **Lissa**. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/139 "2004-07-18T09:57:39Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > “You are in college now and if education is your goal, beliefs should be a thing of your past. I for one have only one belief. This is to believe that one should have no beliefs. Beliefs only cloud your objective analytical ability.” A more scatterbrained statement can scarcely be imagined. He states that belief only clouds objective analytical ability — set aside that an entire field of logic (doxasticism) is dedicated to objective analysis of belief — and the reason that he believes that is because he believes that no one should have beliefs, a belief that is, according to him, his only belief and which, according to him, therefore clouds his objective analytical ability. I believe he is a nut. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2004, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925/140 "2004-07-18T11:12:11Z")
I’m probably going to regret asking this but here it goes anyway. As a parent your doctor tells you that your child will be born gay. He also tells you there is a completely safe procedure they can perform to make him NOT be born gay. Do you have the procedure done? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sorry-shakes-but-yes-you-are-a-bigot/254925.md?page=8)