# Sotomayor: Maybe a Racist. Definitely an Egomaniac. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269 "2009-07-16T21:54:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/21 "2009-07-17T07:42:24Z")
And, to make up for that last post,I’d like to present what Sotomayor actually said, and to whom. First off, she was speaking to a group of largely Latino law professors and students at UC Berkeley; it was the 2001 Judge Mario G. Olmos Memorial Lecture. Toward the end, she said: > [@](#): > > Justice O’Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O’Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life. > > Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable. As Judge Cedarbaum pointed out to me, nine white men on the Supreme Court in the past have done so on many occasions and on many issues including Brown. > > However, to understand takes time and effort, something that not all people are willing to give. For others, their experiences limit their ability to understand the experiences of others. Other simply do not care. Hence, one must accept the proposition that a difference there will be by the presence of women and people of color on the bench. Personal experiences affect the facts that judges choose to see. My hope is that I will take the good from my experiences and extrapolate them further into areas with which I am unfamiliar. I simply do not know exactly what that difference will be in my judging. But I accept there will be some based on my gender and my Latina heritage. There you have it, folks. She borrowed the “wise woman” bit from Sandra O’Connor, and added that she hoped that she could do better than “reach the same conclusion.” Perhaps we should all hope so. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/22 "2009-07-17T14:11:21Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > And, to make up for that last post,I’d like to present what Sotomayor actually said, and to whom. > > First off, she was speaking to a group of largely Latino law professors and students at UC Berkeley; it was the 2001 Judge Mario G. Olmos Memorial Lecture. > > Toward the end, she said: > > > [@](#): > > > > Justice O’Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O’Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn’t lived that life. > > There you have it, folks. She borrowed the “wise woman” bit from Sandra O’Connor, and added that she hoped that she could do better than “reach the same conclusion.” Perhaps we should all hope so. Do you really think that helps? AFAICT, it shows that Sotomayor was making just as racist a statement as she is accused of doing. O’Connor says that she believes that gender (and, by extension, ethnicity) should not matter - a wise old man and a wise old woman should reach the same conclusion. Sotomayor says she disagrees with this - Latinas are apparently better at judging than white men, not the same. This is racist (and sexist). It is equivalent to saying “white men make better judges than black women”. She borrowed the Sandra O’Connor idea only to contradict it. I am constantly surprised at the ability of some people to look at a phrase and interpret it to say exactly the opposite of what it does. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/23 "2009-07-17T14:32:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am constantly surprised at the ability of some people to look at a phrase and interpret it to say exactly the opposite of what it does. > > Regards, > Shodan To me, the whole speech parses weird - as if words were left out. She starts by saying that there can never be a universal definition of wise. Then says better, but doesn’t give context for a Latina woman making a better judgment call. I do believe that a judge’s life experiences will color their wisdom - sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better - and that its more likely for nine white, straight, privileged, Christian men to have similar definition of a “wise” decision than a diverse court. And therefore, I think that a diversity of life experiences on the Court and within the legal system generally is a wise thing to have. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/24 "2009-07-17T14:38:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > …O’Connor says that she believes that gender (and, by extension, ethnicity) should not matter - a wise old man and a wise old woman should reach the same conclusion. Sotomayor says she disagrees with this - Latinas are apparently better at judging than white men, not the same. This is racist (and sexist). It is equivalent to saying “white men make better judges than black women”. > > She borrowed the Sandra O’Connor idea only to contradict it. > > . . . Seriously. I’m pretty darned liberal and I do hope Ms. Sotomayor ultimately gets appointed, but how anyone can interpret her statement other than what **Shodan** says above is beyond me. I don’t think it should be a deal breaker and I think we can all probably stop harping on it, but it does rankle, slightly. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/25 "2009-07-17T16:28:21Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > To me, the whole speech parses weird - as if words were left out. She starts by saying that there can never be a universal definition of wise. Then says better, but doesn’t give context for a Latina woman making a better judgment call. > > I do believe that a judge’s life experiences will color their wisdom - sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better - and that its more likely for nine white, straight, privileged, Christian men to have similar definition of a “wise” decision than a diverse court. And therefore, I think that a diversity of life experiences on the Court and within the legal system generally is a wise thing to have. But that’s not what she said. That is not the debate. She was not pointing to the body of justices, but to individual justices, comparing herself as a Latina to white males. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/26 "2009-07-17T16:29:24Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > Seriously. I’m pretty darned liberal and I do hope Ms. Sotomayor ultimately gets appointed, but how anyone can interpret her statement other than what **Shodan** says above is beyond me. I don’t think it should be a deal breaker and I think we can all probably stop harping on it, but it does rankle, slightly. Sanity, ahhh. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/27 "2009-07-17T16:42:45Z")
She said she would HOPE that a “wise Latina woman” would come to better conclusion in some cases (the comment in question was made as an allusion to sexual harrassment cases), that she HOPED that people with different experiences would draw from those experiences. It’s no different from Alito (a former member of a racist club in college) said he drew his experience as the son of Italian immigrants. She also pointed out that 9 white guys had decided on _Brown_. This is an example of right wingers hearing what they want to hear, not what was actually said. It’s always entertaining to see upper class, white, Christian, American males – the most priveleged, and powerful people in the history of the world – try to paint themselves as a persecuted minority. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/28 "2009-07-17T16:45:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But that’s not what she said. That is not the debate. She was not pointing to the body of justices, but to individual justices, comparing herself as a Latina to white males. She wasn’t talking about herself at all, nor was she saying that ny group was “better,” only that not all “wisdom” was the same – that it manifested itself differently according to experience. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/29 "2009-07-17T16:46:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s always entertaining to see upper class, white, Christian, American males – the most priveleged, and powerful people in the history of the world – try to paint themselves as a persecuted minority. Everyone else is doing it - they just want to be popular. ---
**Author:** ![Marienee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@Marienee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marienee)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/30 "2009-07-17T16:48:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But that’s not what she said. That is not the debate. She was not pointing to the body of justices, but to individual justices, comparing herself as a Latina to white males. No, actually if you read the [entire speech](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/15/us/politics/15judge.text.html?pagewanted=1), the subject of it was the probable effect on the bench of having more women and people of color on it. Her thesis was almost exactly what \*\*Dangerosa \*\*said. It’s a longish speech and quite a good one, and it does have controversial bits – though none of them lend themselves to hearings or pittings for that matter, because they are not really sound bite-able. Her thesis is essentially here, from the same speech: _Because I accept the proposition that, as Judge Resnik describes it, “to judge is an exercise of power” and because as, another former law school classmate, Professor Martha Minnow of Harvard Law School, states “there is no objective stance but only a series of perspectives - no neutrality, no escape from choice in judging,” I further accept that our experiences as women and people of color affect our decisions. The aspiration to impartiality is just that–it’s an aspiration because it denies the fact that we are by our experiences making different choices than others. Not all women or people of color, in all or some circumstances or indeed in any particular case or circumstance but enough people of color in enough cases, will make a difference in the process of judging._ ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/31 "2009-07-17T16:55:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is an example of right wingers hearing what they want to hear, not what was actually said. It’s always entertaining to see upper class, white, Christian, American males – the most priveleged, and powerful people in the history of the world – try to paint themselves as a persecuted minority. They’re terrified of losing their privileged position in society. And since a lot of people have convinced themselves that racism doesn’t exist anymore, they cry racist when other people point out that it ain’t necessarily so. > [@Shodan](#): > > Sotomayor says she disagrees with this - Latinas are apparently better at judging than white men, not the same. This is racist (and sexist). It is equivalent to saying “white men make better judges than black women”. It’s interesting that she then goes on to talk about how the Supreme Court handled discrimination cases, isn’t it? Is it possible to conclude that perhaps she was talking about experience with discrimination? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/32 "2009-07-17T16:58:58Z")
All, Reread posts by **Shodan** and **WOOKINPANUB**. If, after having done so you do not agree, repeat. **Dio** , she was saying that someone of one race would reach a wiser conclusion than someone of another race. Just imagine what side of this you’d be on if Scalia said something like this. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/33 "2009-07-17T17:09:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > **Dio** , she was saying that someone of one race would reach a wiser conclusion than someone of another race. No she wasn’t. That is literally not what she said. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/34 "2009-07-17T17:28:38Z")
Everyone agrees that non-white judges are likely to understand discrimination better than white judges, right? Of course not, but I have to ask. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/35 "2009-07-17T17:32:26Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > To me, the whole speech parses weird - as if words were left out. She starts by saying that there can never be a universal definition of wise. Then says better, but doesn’t give context for a Latina woman making a better judgment call. I took that as sort of ‘post-modern’ stuff, like cultural relativism and suchlike. But I think you are correct - you can’t say ‘there is no one standard that applies to everyone’ and then try to apply one standard to everyone. My take on it was that she was in front of a friendly audience, and she got carried away. This kind of “all animals are equal but some are more equal than others” is pretty much mainstream thought at Berkeley, so it passed without remark. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/36 "2009-07-17T18:04:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Everyone agrees that non-white judges are likely to understand discrimination better than white judges, right… Perhaps a bit of attention may be focused on that one word, “understand”. Perhaps a better choice would be “appreciate”. One can understand as the result of strictly cognitive processes. One can understand a disease without experiencing it, it is not needful that an oncologist be a cancer survivor. And there is plenty of study and insight available on what discrimination is, and how it operates in the civic arena. That might well lead to understanding. But to appreciate the effect of racism or any form of hurtul discrimination on its victim, one gains great insight by being said victim. Well, duh! This is not to say that old white men have no understanding of the injustice of helplessness, but they are bound to have less appreciation. The oncologist who has not suffered cancer is the intellectual equal of the one who has not. But who is likely to be wiser about its human cost? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/37 "2009-07-17T18:19:09Z")
Who cares, there is nothing in her judicial record to indicate even a hint of what is being alleged here. She said something carelessly about ten years ago. YAWN. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/38 "2009-07-17T18:24:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …that all you got? Amen. If you’ve got something to say, say it. The OP is just bloviating about something that doesn’t exist. It’s unsubstantiated namecalling, and a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/39 "2009-07-17T18:27:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s interesting that she then goes on to talk about how the Supreme Court handled discrimination cases, isn’t it? Is it possible to conclude that perhaps she was talking about experience with discrimination? That’s what I get from reading the three paragraphs that were quoted here. The statement in itself is racist, but the paragraph that follows it suggests that she was referring specifically to cases of race and sex discrimination. Because her record doesn’t show any racism in her rulings, I’m willing to give her a pass on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269/40 "2009-07-17T18:27:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I took that as sort of ‘post-modern’ stuff, like cultural relativism and suchlike. But I think you are correct - you can’t say ‘there is no one standard that applies to everyone’ and then try to apply one standard to everyone. > > My take on it was that she was in front of a friendly audience, and she got carried away. This kind of “all animals are equal but some are more equal than others” is pretty much mainstream thought at Berkeley, so it passed without remark. > > Regards, > Shodan As far as I can tell - that’s pretty much mainstream thought whatever group of people you are in. It certainly is something that white men lost their corner on long ago, but there seems to be plenty to go around, so white men still have plenty of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotomayor-maybe-a-racist-definitely-an-egomaniac/503269.md?page=3)