# SOTU says we're the good guys. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636 "2003-01-30T15:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636/41 "2003-02-01T17:35:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by regnad kcin \* > \*\*France and Germany may be having economic problems right now (like just about everyone else in the world), but they continue to be, with England, the economic powers of the continent. > > Spain? Italy? Poland? Give me a break. \*\* The 2000 Gross National Product of France was $1,543 billion. [Italy was only 18% lower](http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/gnp.html), at $1,260 billion. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636/42 "2003-02-01T18:24:51Z")
I don’t approve of using absolute moral language inconsistently. You can’t put on a white hat in one moment (Iraq) in the name of an unresistable duty to fight an absolute evil, and then plead calculating pragmatism the next (Korea). Whether Saddam gassed his own people is obviously not in any way relevant to the case for war. If it was, then there would be no need to wait for Hans Blix. Of course, I’m in favor of disposing Saddam irregardless of his stockpile of weapons (a more Hitchens-like view), so I guess I don’t need extra reasons to be appealed to for going to war with him, which in turn makes me a lot less passionate about needing to defend the consistency of other reasons given. I’m also steamed that Bush continues to use extremely dishonest rhetoric to sell his tax cuts, which I think he should be defending solely on the grounds of justice, not on the fantastical view that they are targeted at all Americans, or this wildly distorted “average family” claptrap. Finally, I am surprised that he’d so loudly push for the hydrogen solution, especially given the potential security dangers of hydrogen. We need a lot more thought about that issue before we even think about the future of small scale energy. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636/43 "2003-02-01T18:30:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > I don’t like Mr. Bush, my whole country doesn’t care about him and I can assure you that most of the WORLD population doesn’t care about him either. … > … In Latin America we never trusted you, \*\* I just consider myself lucky to be on the same messageboard as someone who speaks for all of Argintina, Latin America, and even the entire world. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636/44 "2003-02-01T18:42:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*I just consider myself lucky to be on the same messageboard as someone who speaks for all of Argintina, Latin America, and even the entire world. \*\* Well he does speak for me, and every single non-American I know. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636/45 "2003-02-02T00:24:11Z")
Msmith537, you should. It happens to me also, sometimes I am looking at the mirror and think “Well I am just very lucky to be staring at the same mirror that handsome fellow is using”. Seriously I never claimed that. I was stating what I consider to be the opinion of the whole world about your president. The guy is just disgusting with all his “good vs. evil” speech. If you don’t see that it’s your loss. I never claimed to be spaking for the 35 million argentinians, the 300 humdred millions (I think) Latin Americans and most certainly not for the 6 billion human beings. I merely stated what in my opinion is the general opinion. If anything I posted led you to think that I speak for the human race… well you just can sue me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636/46 "2003-02-02T00:37:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I won’t say “Hey I have a lots of american friends” because unfortunately I don’t have any. Cite?? 🙂 Seriously, I’ll assure you that you have at least one. I don’t always agree with you – in fact, I _seldom_ agree with you, and I do find your posts a bit difficult to grasp the meaning of – though I’m confident that you’d find my Spanish-language posts even harder to understand! But I appreciate the thought and frankness that you put into your posts, and having someone from Argentina who is fluent and thoughtful contributing is a gift to all of the rest of us, in terms of putting a different perspective on things. **MSmith** , he has a point. America does tend to move between speaking frankly in our own self-interests and taking a stance in favor of capitalist democratic free ideals – and I think that at least part of the time we tend to cloak the former with the latter, deceiving ourselves about our motives as much as we try to do that with others. Honest question: Do you think that GWB and Dick Cheney are totally motivated by their oil industry background in their Middle East stance? No, right. Now – Do you think that they are able to totally distance themselves from that background in making the decisions they must? And knowing that they come from that background, what do you think that some unbiased observer in Cairo or Ljubljana or Bangkok is going to think are their motives? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636/47 "2003-02-02T01:17:59Z")
—And knowing that they come from that background— It’s more than a background in some cases: it can also be a revolving door between public service and employment and investment in the private sector. It isn’t just where people in the administration are coming from, it’s often also what they are going back to when they are done serving. I think people too often overlook the _legitimate_ interests of the oil industry. It’s not necessarily BAD that oil factors into things. It is pretty darn important. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636/48 "2003-02-02T04:03:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > Finally, I am surprised that he’d so loudly push for the hydrogen solution, especially given the potential security dangers of hydrogen. We need a lot more thought about that issue before we even think about the future of small scale energy. Just a quick mention for this: Seriously unlikely to be a coincidence that Bush is currently – and all of a sudden and at this time; why in the middle of all this ? - talking up hydrogen and has pledged $15 billion to Aids in Africa… he’s making nice with those he wants abstentions from (rather than the big veto) when he has to go back to the UN for a second Resolution – are Euro politicians that naïve ? No but voters the world over are, including in France and Germany, where the Environment and Kyoto wins votes. It ‘s just something easy Bush can say that contributes to mitigating the hostility to him in Europe. As such, it’s just one of the many tactics employed at the moment – up front like these and behind the scenes – to try and avoid a veto on the second Resolution …. Believe me, there will be a second Resolution and there won’t be a veto – France will abstain. Words come easy to this man - he may not be so good at reading and writing, but he can speak 'em. An interesting question at the moment is; what’s Bush offering Putin behind the scenes … Putin’s a major player right now, IMHO….I guess we’ll know soon enough… And **Polycarp** – You completely threw me with that ! You take care of your member, sounds troublesome 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636/49 "2003-02-02T17:30:15Z")
Do you realize what this mean to me Polycarp, now I can use the infamous “I have american friends but…” You made very happy today, and if ever you want to trash Argentina, Latin America, Soccer or the catholics you can do it also because YOU ARE MY FRIEND. Now all I need is a french friend and I will be covered in all flanks. And I finally will realize my dream of writing a really nasty book about french cheese 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sotu-says-were-the-good-guys/151636.md?page=2)