# Source? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 19, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647 "2013-08-19T17:31:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/1 "2013-08-19T17:31:39Z")
When people replying with “source?” to then end of an argument, I am so frustrated. It is intended as an intellectual reply, but demonstrates a complete lack of critical thinking, and not to mention rude. People often bad mouth Wikipedia for being editable by anyone, and thus potentially rife with error and bias. However, I think the mentality involved in writing the encyclopedia, when applied to the real world outside the wiki-ivory tower, is its more damaging feature. As a policy, which is the Wikimedia Foundation’s prerogative, editors are only allowed to repeat claims and theories made in secondary sources. Editors are not allowed to “synthesize” information from primary or secondary sources to reach unique conclusions. Within the narrow scope of producing a reliable tertiary source, this is fine. However, those secondary sources are written by people who are allowed to perform synthesis from multiple sources! This is a critical skill that is sorely lacking, and difficult to teach in schools. When people dismissively ask for a “source” when somebody reaches a novel conclusion, they are actively discouraging intelligent thought. They are requiring all new thought to come from approved sources - individuals are not allowed to have their own ideas. When criticizing an argument, except for the most dubious of claims, provide actual feedback. Analyze the strength of the argument, and point out a flaw or an unsubstantiated factual claim. Explain how the argument falls apart the fact is not true. Point out the logical fallacy that knocks the house of cards down. Don’t blindly appeal to the lack-of-authority making the claim, and call it a day! TLDR; I love Big Brother… I have always loved Big Brother! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/2 "2013-08-19T17:33:28Z")
Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/3 "2013-08-19T17:35:29Z")
What about the asshole in Great Debates currently claiming that John Kerry lied about his war record and is a “joke” internationally? I think it’s perfectly okay to reply “source?” when people just make shit up. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/4 "2013-08-19T17:41:26Z")
Proof? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/5 "2013-08-19T17:43:43Z")
My post is my cite. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/6 "2013-08-19T17:44:16Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > What about the asshole in Great Debates currently claiming that John Kerry lied about his war record and is a “joke” internationally? I think it’s perfectly okay to reply “source?” when people just make shit up. In which thread? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/7 "2013-08-19T17:49:42Z")
Nowhere is this evident more than in the discussions about anything involving Government. Any cite available will originate with the Government so what’s the debate about? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/8 "2013-08-19T17:49:45Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > In which thread? [This one.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=699871)#18 ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/9 "2013-08-19T17:56:27Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > What about the asshole in Great Debates currently claiming that John Kerry lied about his war record and is a “joke” internationally? I think it’s perfectly okay to reply “source?” when people just make shit up. It can be a poignant insult when not overused. I am also found of the direct approach, calling its [source?] the stinking end of a cow… ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/10 "2013-08-19T18:29:00Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > What about the asshole in Great Debates currently claiming that John Kerry lied about his war record and is a “joke” internationally? I think it’s perfectly okay to reply “source?” when people just make shit up. Actually, having read the post in question, replying “cite” isn’t enough. This implies to the naive lurker that such a citation from a reliable source may exist. Garbage like this should be moved to the talk page and debated over for months instead… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/11 "2013-08-19T18:32:12Z")
Sauce? ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/12 "2013-08-19T19:31:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > My post is my cite. In Russia, cite posts you! No, that didn’t quite work, did it? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/13 "2013-08-19T19:49:50Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > It can be a poignant insult when not overused. > > I am also found of the direct approach, calling its [source?] the stinking end of a cow… See, there’s your problem. Saying “source?” or “cite?” or the like isn’t an insult, nor intended to be. It’s a direct way of asking for what someone’s evidence for their claim is. Sure, the questioner often strongly suspects the claim is full of shit, but that doesn’t make it an insult any more than a liquor store clerk asking someone young looking for ID. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/14 "2013-08-19T19:54:28Z")
As the old saying goes… this will not end well. Mostly because it didn’t begin well. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/15 "2013-08-19T20:05:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As the old saying goes… this will not end well. Mostly because it didn’t begin well. Just to be clear, this is your _opinion_, right? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/16 "2013-08-19T20:08:20Z")
Wikipedia does not allow its editors to do original research, not because they are in any way opposed to original research, but because that’s not what an encyclopedia is for. IIRC, though, there are other projects run by the same organization that do allow and encourage original research. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/17 "2013-08-19T20:53:10Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > When people replying with “source?” You misspelled “cite.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/18 "2013-08-19T21:43:01Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > When people dismissively ask for a “source” when somebody reaches a novel conclusion, they are actively discouraging intelligent thought. They are requiring all new thought to come from approved sources - individuals are not allowed to have their own ideas. “You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.” - Daniel Moynihan There’s a source for that. I’m just too lazy to link to it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/19 "2013-08-19T21:54:48Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > When criticizing an argument, except for the most dubious of claims, provide actual feedback. Analyze the strength of the argument, and point out a flaw or an unsubstantiated factual claim. Explain how the argument falls apart the fact is not true. Point out the logical fallacy that knocks the house of cards down. Don’t blindly appeal to the lack-of-authority making the claim, and call it a day! You are really new at this huh? What I think many are forgetting to mention here is that many times there is plenty of history to doubt that specific posters are bringing the same debunked to hell points for the 100th time and one should not expect to get a different result than yet another run around from them. However I do think that indeed, a few lines with links are needed to explain how wrong a same old, same old, poster is before dropping the “Sauce?” on them. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647/20 "2013-08-19T22:52:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You are really new at this huh? I am flaming a specific incident, albeit on a different forum, where I posted a complicated argument in response to the topic, and got the “sauce?” from some misguided soul. Other people provided perfectly helpful or valid criticism, but then this guy… Turns out he only wanted clarification on a particular factual point, but how the hell would I know that? Similar things have happened more than once… > [@](#): > > What I think many are forgetting to mention here is that many times there is plenty of history to doubt that specific posters are bringing the same debunked to hell points for the 100th time and one should not expect to get a different result than yet another run around from them. > > However I do think that indeed, a few lines with links are needed to explain how wrong a same old, same old, poster is before dropping the “Sauce?” on them. I agree that responding to the same old bullshit doesn’t have to be elaborate. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/source/666647.md?page=2)