# South Africa going the way of Zimbabwe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 8, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071 "2017-11-08T19:15:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/1 "2017-11-08T19:15:17Z")
I’ve just read [this article](https://countrysquire.co.uk/2017/10/30/willemien/) about the plight of white Boers in South Africa. I’ve put the text of the opening inside a spoiler because it’s gruesome. > [@](#): > > Willemien (pictured below) was only two years old when, along with her mother, she was forced to watch her farmer father stabbed 151 times with a garden fork. Her little feet were dipped in her father’s blood, and she was then lifted up by her baby-soft red hair, and shot at point-blank range through her head. Then her mother was forced to her knees and shot through the back of her head. A paragraph near the end goes: > [@](#): > > There were once 60,000 farms run by Boers. South Africa is many things, but not hungry, thanks in large part to their work. There are now only 30,000 such farms remaining, and 22,000 of them are up for sale. Anyone who believes that, after three centuries, South Africa is not equally the Boer’s homeland simply on grounds of race must have a poor opinion of the rights of far more recent non-white immigrants in Europe – unless, of course, they are total hypocrites. Given a place to go to, I doubt many Boers would stay, because the intention of the ANC is their genocide, the beheading of their children, their death by brutal means as elated crowds dance and sing. What’s the Straight Dope? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/2 "2017-11-08T20:20:10Z")
_Country Squire_? Is that, like, the new advocacy mag for genteel white Brits, oppressed in their country cottages? Here’s another quote from the article which I think answer the question about whether this is objective journalism or not. > [@](#): > > The young family are only three among thousands of their kind, butchered with sickening, animalistic savagery, in an orgy of killing which is ignored by a world which doesn’t recognise this particular kind of victim. The dead, you see, are white South Africans, and are considered fair game by those most likely to react with pearl-clutching horror at the use of a racial pejorative in response to a terrorist attack by brown North Africans. > > In a civilised world colour should not be an issue. Alas, the realities of this world make such distinctions still relevant, even though liberals deny attacks on whites or see them, in their perverse way, as some kind of karma for imperialism. Let’s see what our **Mr. Dibble** , our resident South African, has to say about this. Now, to the extent such killing is happening, it’s a horrible tragedy. But sorry if I don’t trust your source to report objectively on the matter. A better source would be… better. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/3 "2017-11-08T20:26:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > _Country Squire_? Is that, like, the new advocacy mag for genteel white Brits, oppressed in their country cottages? I like reading widely. I like reading articles that challenge me. I try to see and appreciate and try to understand other perspectives. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/4 "2017-11-08T20:33:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let’s see what our **Mr. Dibble** , our resident South African, has to say about this. As a white South African with Afrikaner heritage, I’m probably better placed to comment. The Country Squire article is complete and utter racist horseshit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/5 "2017-11-08T20:50:17Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I like reading widely. I like reading articles that challenge me. I try to see and appreciate and try to understand other perspectives. Don’t you? I try to keep a open mind, but not open so much that my brain falls out. 😉 But I wasn’t talking about what made for good reading. I was talking about what made for good convincing of other folks. > [@WilyQuixote](#): > > As a white South African with Afrikaner heritage, I’m probably better placed to comment. > > The Country Squire article is complete and utter racist horseshit. Out of curiosity, are the details of the murder quoted in the OP in dispute? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/6 "2017-11-08T20:53:46Z")
Take _any_ country and count the number of farmers/farms over time. Guess what the trend is? I’ve personally seen this in the area of my old family farms. The farms are consolidating into few owners. Some are now quite large but rarely contiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/7 "2017-11-08T21:02:53Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > The Country Squire article is complete and utter racist horseshit. Good. What are the actual statistics for farms for sale? ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/8 "2017-11-08T21:07:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Out of curiosity, are the details of the murder quoted in the OP in dispute? The details were unfamiliar so I had to a bit of Googling. Not surprising as it happened in 2010. Some details aren’t in police reports, but yes, a family, including a toddler, was brutally murdered. However this > [@](#): > > At the trial of the family’s six killers, all local black men, a large crowd gathered outside the court in celebration of the slaughter, cheering the killers as heroes and saviours. Women (under the circumstances I use the word women very loosely) danced and sang in excited joy. I could only trace back to CensorBugbear, a blatantly racist site. Until I see it mentioned on a proper newsite, I consider it to be pure fantasy. Also, completely unmentioned in the article is that all six killers were caught, tried and received hefty prison sentences in 2011. That little factoid would have interfered with the white genocide narrative so naturally it was omitted. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/9 "2017-11-08T21:32:31Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Good. What are the actual statistics for farms for sale? The article is mix of leis, distortions and half-truths, which makes it tricky to track down the facts of the matter. According to Transvaal Agricultural Union, there were 60 000 commercial farmers in 1996; that number is now 35 000. Most, but not all, would have been Afrikaners. Of course, the article glosses over the multitude of reason for decline, such as the lack of interest in farming by younger people (as of 2012, the average age of a farmer was 62), consolidation of farms, increased competition following lifting of sanctions, current drought, etc. At least a fifth of commercial farms are on the market at any one time. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/10 "2017-11-08T21:49:07Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > The article is mix of leis, distortions and half-truths, which makes it tricky to track down the facts of the matter. Hence my asking the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/11 "2017-11-08T21:50:28Z")
The number of farms in every developed country is going down, as they are consolidated by industrial food producers (whether multinationals like ArcherDanielsMidland or regional players). So it would be surprising if the number of farms hadn’t gone down. The [same is true in the US](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-bigger-and-most-small-farms-arent-really-farms-at-all/), except that recent consolidations have been offset by a rise in boutique farming (think people making hops for craft brewing and such). ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/12 "2017-11-08T22:36:42Z")
Here are a couple of other recent articles about farm murders in SA. They are certainly more balanced and reputable than the article in the OP, which is an admittedly low bar. The conclusions are a bit more nuanced. A few points I noted: [ul] [li]the murder rate is a big problem in SA overall[/li][li]farm workers are at higher risk than the general public, which could also be said for several other professions[/li][li]some of the killings were racially motivated, some were robbery, some were revenge[/li][/ul] > **[10 questions about #BlackMonday - and farm murders - answered | News24](https://www.news24.com/news24/opinions/analysis/10-questions-about-blackmonday-answered-20171101)** > > The #BlackMonday campaign raised several questions about the legitimacy of farmers' concerns and the overall issue of crime in South Africa. Frans Cronje unpacks the issue. > **[S Africa: Are white farmers more likely to be killed?](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/30/blackmonday-white-farmers-protest-against-farm-murder/)** > > Protesters don black to rage against killings but analysts say white farmers should be aware they are not only victims Here’s a [short discussion](https://www.fin24.com/Companies/Agribusiness/map-more-than-19-000-farms-in-sa-for-sale-20160607) of farm sales from 2016, when 19,000+ were for sale. It attributes the high number to economic conditions. > [@](#): > > Theunissen said at play is economic affirmative action. "Land prices have been unrealistically high in the last few years. Something had to give, because we were far beyond the repayment ability of the soil. > > “We were in a ‘bubble’ where people argued it will just get more expensive the next year to buy land and as a result farmers didn’t really look at the repayment ability as a benchmark.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/13 "2017-11-08T23:00:30Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Here’s a [short discussion](https://www.fin24.com/Companies/Agribusiness/map-more-than-19-000-farms-in-sa-for-sale-20160607) of farm sales from 2016, when 19,000+ were for sale. It attributes the high number to economic conditions. That’s an excellent article. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/14 "2017-11-08T23:30:56Z")
They really pissed off the [Irish](http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/153521-get-stuffed-ireland.html) too. (They had to take it off of their website, because there was so much [backlash](https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/newsireland/puppy-farms-ratholes-like-rathkeale-drug-mule-celebs-british-magazine-to-lose-advertisers-after-bizarre-anti-irish-article/ar-AApUsXf)) Holy shit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/15 "2017-11-09T01:18:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The number of farms in every developed country is going down, as they are consolidated by industrial food producers (whether multinationals like ArcherDanielsMidland or regional players). So it would be surprising if the number of farms hadn’t gone down. The [same is true in the US](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/big-farms-are-getting-bigger-and-most-small-farms-arent-really-farms-at-all/), except that recent consolidations have been offset by a rise in boutique farming (think people making hops for craft brewing and such). Organic, free-range kale. And dolphin-free chickens. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/16 "2017-11-09T03:42:38Z")
the magazine of the off the grid white “homelanders” I see And as for the Irish article if this was the IRA dominated 70s/80s … they’d of just gave him a good old fashioned “Irish car bomb” ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/17 "2017-11-09T07:05:00Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > As a white South African with Afrikaner heritage, I’m probably better placed to comment. > > The Country Squire article is complete and utter racist horseshit. As another white South African, I fully agree. This is far-right racist propaganda. There have certainly been incidents where isolated farmers have been murdered. It’s a genuine problem, but it’s not a significant threat to the agricultural sector, much less to the country as a whole. Here’s an excellent and balanced article from only a couple of weeks ago: [South Africa’s farm murder statistics are more political than accurate](https://mg.co.za/article/2017-10-30-south-africas-farm-murder-statistics-are-more-political-than-accurate) > [@](#): > > A recent analysis by Africa Check, an organisation that promotes accuracy in media reporting, has called into question the accuracy of commonly cited farm murder statistics for South Africa. By looking at the available data, they concluded that it is near impossible to accurately calculate farm murder rates. This calls into question the popular narrative that South Africa’s white farming minority is under siege. > > Farm murders in South Africa are a highly politicised issue. Outside of the general concern for homicide in the country, the farm murder rate has been used by many as evidence that South Africa’s white minority is facing victimisation, oppression, and possibly genocide. I would guess that ex-South Africans who emigrated to the UK are responsible for the article in Country Squire. (A magazine obviously not intended for the peasants!) There’s a certain vocal group of ex-South Africans who left the country in the 80’s and 90’s due to fears of ‘those people’ taking over. They have been stridently predicting disaster ever since. They seem to need to justify their decision to leave. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/18 "2017-11-09T08:27:32Z")
What, farm killings and Zimbabwe comparisons [again](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607787)? [Still](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=670161)? Slowest white genocide ever. Guess that’s another thing Blacks suck at… Farm murder rates are hard to calculate properly, but are often distorted - [here’s a link](https://africacheck.org/2017/05/08/analysis-calculating-farm-murder-rate-sa-near-impossible/) to an article on Africacheck, referenced by that M&G article **GreenWyvern** posted. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/19 "2017-11-09T08:41:30Z")
Oh, and **Quartz** , one might almost think you had some sort of habit of making[the same dumb comparison](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820953) every time you read an article about SA. Except when you’re just "idly"[fantasizing about race war](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=826122) here, that is… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/20 "2017-11-09T08:52:44Z")
And as is customary, I’m going to link back to an [earlier post of mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12123241&postcount=40) about farm killings. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071.md?page=2)