# South Africa going the way of Zimbabwe? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 8, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071 "2017-11-08T19:15:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/21 "2017-11-09T08:58:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Slowest white genocide ever. Guess that’s another thing Blacks suck at… I wish they would hurry up. I’ve got tonnes of credit card debt I’m trying to dodge. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/22 "2017-11-09T09:56:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, and **Quartz** , one might almost think you had some sort of habit of making[the same dumb comparison](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820953) every time you read an article about SA. Except when you’re just "idly"[fantasizing about race war](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=826122) here, that is… I knew this topic wasn’t exactly fresh here on the SDMB, and even though I participated in those two threads I didn’t realise they were all by the same OP or that he had a history of posting dodgy links. Speculation as to his motives is best left to other forums though. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/23 "2017-11-09T10:26:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, and **Quartz** , one might almost think you had some sort of habit of making[the same dumb comparison](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820953) every time you read an article about SA. That thread was about land seizures, not murders. > [@](#): > > Except when you’re just "idly"[fantasizing about race war](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=826122) here, that is… Fantasising? More like fearing, TYVM. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/24 "2017-11-09T11:12:37Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > I knew this topic wasn’t exactly fresh here on the SDMB, and even though I participated in those two threads I didn’t realise they were all by the same OP or that he had a history of posting dodgy links. > > Speculation as to his motives is best left to other forums though. B3est to be careful - he also likes to report posts. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > _Country Squire_? Is that, like, the new advocacy mag for genteel white Brits, oppressed in their country cottages? _Like_ ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/25 "2017-11-09T11:48:17Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > B3est to be careful - he also likes to report posts. You keep saying that but it doesn’t make it true. However, this one I am indeed reporting because you’re persisting in the lie. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/26 "2017-11-09T11:53:40Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Fantasising? More like fearing, TYVM. The thing is, that scenario of race war is so utterly out of touch with the reality in South Africa as to be meaningless. Can I suggest that you actually come and visit South Africa some time? You will find things to be a lot different from what you imagine. From [this report](http://www.statssa.gov.za/publications/Report-03-51-02/Report-03-51-022016.pdf), about 2.5 million overseas tourists visited South Africa last year. The ten top countries for overseas tourists in 2016 were: The United Kingdom (UK), 447 840 (17,7%) United States of America (USA), 345 013 (13,6%) Germany, 311 832 (12,3%) France, 154 226 (6,1%) The Netherlands, 147 973 (5,8%) China, 116 946 (4,6%) Australia, 109 146 (4,3%) India, 95 377 (3,8%) Canada, 61 179 (2,4%) Italy, 60 774 (2,4%) The numbers from all these countries increased from 2015. **Quartz** , since you seem to be in the UK, and are probably Conservative in politics, you may find it interesting that last year Telegraph readers voted Cape Town as the [top city in world](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/galleries/The-worlds-best-cities-in-pictures/) to visit, and South Africa as the 3rd [best country](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/galleries/The-worlds-best-countries-in-pictures/), after New Zealand and the Maldives. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/27 "2017-11-09T12:00:46Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > That thread was about land seizures, not murders. Farm seizures and farm murders - two completely unrelated topics, people! Pay no attention to the Zimbabwe behind the curtain (or the near-identical titles)! > [@](#): > > Fantasising? More like fearing, TYVM. Sure, whatever you say. Just Asking Questions, say no more… …and the _Turner Diaries_ was just harmless near-future sci-fi :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/28 "2017-11-09T12:06:11Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > **Quartz** , since you seem to be in the UK, and are probably Conservative in politics, I did indeed vote Conservative at the last General Election but that was a tactical vote because they stood the best chance of defeating the SNP (which they did). Consider it a Unionist vote rather than a Conservative one. Previously I voted Labour and in 2010 Lib Dem (due to Margaret Moran). I am not a member of any political party. Over the years I’ve voted for the candidates of many parties. So no, I’m not a Conservative. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/29 "2017-11-09T15:08:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What, farm killings and Zimbabwe comparisons [again](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=607787)? [Still](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=670161)? > > **Slowest white genocide ever. Guess that’s another thing Blacks suck at…** > > Farm murder rates are hard to calculate properly, but are often distorted - [here’s a link](https://africacheck.org/2017/05/08/analysis-calculating-farm-murder-rate-sa-near-impossible/) to an article on Africacheck, referenced by that M&G article **GreenWyvern** posted. Bolding mine. Overall this is no laughing matter, but I have to say I laughed at this. Well turned phrase. Bravo good Sir. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/30 "2017-11-09T17:11:46Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > B3est to be careful - he also likes to report posts. Drop it. If you have an issue with the poster, this isn’t the forum for that. Take it elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/31 "2017-11-09T17:17:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Hence my asking the Dope. Personally, I’d be embarrassed to turn to the Dope rather than figuring out my own self that the guy who emailed me isn’t a real Nigerian prince or that the watch the guy on the subway tried to sell me isn’t a real Rolex or some such, but your mileage may vary. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/32 "2017-11-09T17:37:59Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Personally, I’d be embarrassed to turn to the Dope rather than figuring out my own self that the guy who emailed me isn’t a real Nigerian prince or that the watch the guy on the subway tried to sell me isn’t a real Rolex or some such, but your mileage may vary. Yeah well, my search-fu failed. I have no problem fighting my own ignorance; why do you? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/33 "2017-11-09T18:27:29Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Yeah well, my search-fu failed. I have no problem fighting my own ignorance; why do you? How about engaging in just a little bit of critical thinking. I know basically nothing about the current situation in South Africa, but the minute I started reading that article it was clear to me that it was not journalism, or even analytical editorial writing, in any real sense of the word. It’s a polemic, a manifesto, a screed; nothing more. If you can’t work that out just from the style and the unsupported claims, then you need to work heavily on your critical reading skills. The story talks about an alleged incident where white farmers were sentenced to 19 years in prison for capturing and holding a burglar (or “for this crime of frightening a burglar,” if you believe your article). This story is introduced with the words “Yesterday news broke…” but we are provided with no link, no evidence, no nothing, and a search fails to turn up any such story. And “news broke” is also a great use of the passive voice. Who broke this news? Who reported this story? When did it happen? Where did it happen? We’re not even provided with a province, let alone a town or a precise location. Speaking of specifics, even the main story focuses only on the grisly details of the crime while also embellishing without providing much evidence. The crime did indeed happen largely as reported: the farmer stabbed dozens of times (probably tortured), and the wife and daughter shot dead. But i’ve read at least a half-dozen stories about the case and the trial now (they’re quite easy to find with a search), and not one of them, for example, has claimed that the girl’s “little feet were dipped in her father’s blood.” There are other embellishments in your story that don’t appear in any of the news reports i’ve been able to find. And despite the fact that your linked story has a date of October 30, 2017, nowhere in the “article” does it tell us that the murder under discussion was committed almost seven years ago, in December 2010. The author also lists seven other murders, with no names, no dates, no links, and no evidence or any sort. The article does give a hint at its disingenuous when it talks about the “complete list of atrocities just up to 2011,” hoping that we won’t notice that we’re reading about a story that is over half a decade old. And all of this doesn’t even consider the completely unprofessional and inflammatory language in the story. Terms like “murderous savages” and “didn’t give a toss” and “swarm of black Africans” and “under the circumstances I use the word _women_ very loosely.” To be quite frank, if you didn’t notice any of this, you should spend more time working on your analytical skills, and less time worrying about a race war in South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/34 "2017-11-09T18:39:29Z")
How’d you come across that article, **Quartz**? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/35 "2017-11-10T06:51:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Yeah well, my search-fu failed. You can always add the “site:straightdope.com” keyword [to Google searches](https://www.google.co.za/search?num=50&safe=off&q=site%3Astraightdope.com+farm+killing+South+Africa) in future. > [@](#): > > I have no problem fighting my own ignorance; The fact that you keep creating these threads after you’ve been told better argues against that. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/36 "2017-11-10T07:14:12Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The story talks about an alleged incident where white farmers were sentenced to 19 years in prison for capturing and holding a burglar (or “for this crime of frightening a burglar,” if you believe your article). This story is introduced with the words “Yesterday news broke…” but we are provided with no link, no evidence, no nothing, and a search fails to turn up any such story. And “news broke” is also a great use of the passive voice. Who broke this news? Who reported this story? When did it happen? Where did it happen? We’re not even provided with a province, let alone a town or a precise location. I know exactly what incident is being referred to above and it has been covered extensively and in depth in the local media. It’s the “coffin assault case”. > **[Coffin assault duo sentenced to more than 10 years each](https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2017-10-27-coffin-assault-accused-sentenced-to-more-than-10-years-each/)** > > The two farm workers who filmed themselves forcing Victor Mlotshwa into a coffin will each spend more than a decade behind bars. The local rightwing reactionaries and morons are painting this as a travesty of justice arguing that the sentences are too heavy, smearing the victim, “how can it be attempted murder?”, et bloody cetera. Even by their low standards this is particularly egregious attempt to minimise their crimes. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2017, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/37 "2017-11-10T08:16:52Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > I know exactly what incident is being referred to above and it has been covered extensively and in depth in the local media. > > It’s the “coffin assault case”. > [Coffin assault duo sentenced to more than 10 years each](https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2017-10-27-coffin-assault-accused-sentenced-to-more-than-10-years-each/) > > The local rightwing reactionaries and morons are painting this as a travesty of justice arguing that the sentences are too heavy, smearing the victim, “how can it be attempted murder?”, et bloody cetera. Even by their low standards this is particularly egregious attempt to minimise their crimes. Thanks for the link. I tried to find some information on this myself, but the absence of details in the story linked by **Quartz** made it difficult. I’ve found a few other news stories about it now, and it’s clear that the whole story was egregiously misrepresented by the author of **Quartz** ’s linked article. The author of that article takes for granted that the victim in the case was a “black burglar” who had been caught in the act. The stories about the court case note that the victim said that he had been set upon by the two men without provocation, and even the men themselves do not claim that they caught him in the act of robbing their farm. Instead, according to [this story](https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/south-africa/2017-10-23-witnesses-to-testify-before-sentencing-of-coffin-case-farm-workers/), they claimed that “they had found Mlotshwa in possession of suspected stolen copper cables.” The news story notes that those cables were never found. It’s also worth noting that, even if he had committed a theft or burglary, it wouldn’t justify the way they treated him. Because **Quartz** ’s linked story also conveniently fails to note that they actually took video of themselves putting the victim in the coffin and threatening him. It also forgets to mention that one of the men destroyed the coffin after the incident, in an effort to obstruct the investigation and trial. It also misrepresents the sentencing, claiming that the two white men were sentenced to 19 years in prison, but failing to note that this was only one man’s sentence, and that each man had five years of his sentence suspended, resulting in actual sentences of 11 and 14 years. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/38 "2017-11-13T06:17:24Z")
So, I guess this thread is going to just disappear without any more input from the OP, and the next time there’s some factually-challenged racist piece of yellow journalism about SA, a new thread will spring up like Venus from the _sea foam_\* - probably titled something like “So, Is South Africa Turning Into Zimbabwe? Just Asking For A Friend!” (that’s a only-SA-people-are-likely-to-get-it joke) ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/39 "2017-11-13T06:21:46Z")
Well, the OP has decided to [“take a break”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=841464) from these message boards, so it appears as if this thread might have been something of a swansong. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2017, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071/40 "2017-11-13T07:09:04Z")
Thanks for the heads up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-going-the-way-of-zimbabwe/801071.md?page=3)