# South Africa more progressive than U.S. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005 "2002-07-26T21:04:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/81 "2002-08-07T02:05:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Stable couple with genetic offspring reproducing to produce yet another generation of stable couples. Sorry, but there is absolutely no guarantee that the former leads to the latter. Nor that the converse is true, either. > [@](#): > > Evolution doesn’t work on species? No, it really doesn’t. Feel free to offer evidence to the contrary, if you’d like, but you’re going to have to prove that all individuals in a population happen to mutate at once. Evolution is a cumulative process built from small changes in individuals; it does not act at the species level. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/82 "2002-08-07T02:11:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Stable couple with genetic offspring reproducing to produce yet another generation of stable couples. Sorry, but there is absolutely no guarantee that the former leads to the latter. Nor that the converse is true, either. > [@](#): > > Evolution doesn’t work on species? No, it really doesn’t. Feel free to offer evidence to the contrary, if you’d like, but you’re going to have to prove that all individuals in a population happen to mutate at once. Evolution is a cumulative process built from small changes in individuals; it does not act at the species level. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/83 "2002-08-07T03:39:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\*Oh, I almost forgot: Unmarried people with dependent children get to take the tax deduction also, which pretty much blows your little diatribe right out of the water, you dishonest putz. \*\* People harping about the supposed benifits of joint filing should get a new accountant, since they have no clue about [the marriage tax penalty.](http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/marriage.html) ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/84 "2002-08-07T04:04:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ace0Spades \* > **Mr. Visible** we’ve been down this road before, but I’ll state it one last time. > > To maximize your chances of replicating successful couples, a social good, you need that couple to pass on: > > 1. Their genes and > 2. Their upbringing > > Either is good but both is best. \*\* Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/85 "2002-08-07T05:51:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m utterly fantastically surprised that you couldn’t understand the reasoning behind a claim that has absolutely no valid reasons. Congratulations for making a misstatement, a logical error and two typos in the space of a sentence and a half. Did that first sentence make some sort of sense I just don’t see, or did you just run afoul of Gaudere’s Law? Either way, I’ll stay out the debate between you and **pldennison** , **Homebrew** , and **MrVisible** , as they seem to be handling your claims quite, um, handily. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/86 "2002-08-07T10:36:35Z")
Brutus, exactly what did my post, which concerned taxing deductions for additional dependents, have to do with the marriage penalty? (Hint: Nothing.) If you’re implying that I’m unaware of it, you’re quite stupid. Otherwise, there is no logical connection between my post and yours. In fact, I haven’t seen anyone “harping on” some supposed tax benefit simply for filing jointly; they’ve concentrated on the other legal benefits that accrue from marriage, such as inheritance rights. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/87 "2002-08-07T20:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > I don’t need to. The premises behind his conclusion are self-evident. To you, they are self-evident. To me, what I said was self-evident. The fact that you allow people that you agree with to use the “it’s self-evident” defense, but not people with whom you disagree, indicites hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > You’re the one making the claim that denying one class of people the same priveledges as another class with absoulutely no valid reason is somehow not bigotry. No, you **interpreted** me as making that claim. Your continued inability to distinguish between what I have said and what you think I have said makes it very irritating to deal with you. How many times do I have to say it? Do not misrepresent my position. Do not misrepresent my position. Do not misrepresent my position. Do you get it now? > [@](#): > > And I still don’t understand the reasoning behind it, after two pages of debate. And I don’t understand the reasoning behind your claim that all Republicans are agents of Satan. Maybe that’s because you didn’t actually say it, and I am putting words in your mouth. > [@](#): > > That’d be the part where you clearly stated and supported your position. Reasonable people, when wishing to discuss something they don’t understand, ask for a clarification. Unreasonable people simply make up an interpretation that suits them, ask that the person defend a position that he never took, and then blame him for their own rudeness. You do not need to understand what my postion is to refrain from misrepresenting it. > [@](#): > > Which you failed to do, thereby supporting my claim that your analogy is invalid. How did I fail to show that non-bigoted actions can be done for bigoted reasons? > [@](#): > > Can you show how someone can oppose gay marriage and _not_ be a bigot? If you mean “same-sex marriage”, the process is very simple: first, they must be a non-bigot; and next, they must oppose same-sex marriage. I’m not quite sure what else you want from me. > [@](#): > > Obligated? I never said you were obligated. And I never said that you said that I was obligated. I said that you implied it. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/88 "2002-08-07T20:37:16Z")
**The Ryan** , once again you dazzle us with another exciting demonstration language as pure art, unbesmirched by actual meaning. Breathtaking. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/89 "2002-08-07T21:03:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\*Brutus, exactly what did my post, which concerned taxing deductions for additional dependents, have to do with the marriage penalty? (Hint: Nothing.) If you’re implying that I’m unaware of it, you’re quite stupid. Otherwise, there is no logical connection between my post and yours. In fact, I haven’t seen anyone “harping on” some supposed tax benefit simply for filing jointly; they’ve concentrated on the other legal benefits that accrue from marriage, such as inheritance rights. \*\* True, your quote was involving not-children. I way misread that one. I should instead quote **Homebrew** , who asserts that there is fiscal advantage to married couples. I won’t quote him, since I am indeed that lazy. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/90 "2002-08-07T21:38:59Z")
Are you trying to nitpick one aspect and ignore the rest, **Idiot formerly known as Ottto**? Yes, being married has distinct legal advantages. I’ve linked to several of those. You want to keep harping on whether there is a Marriage Penalty, eh? How about in the case of a married couple where one is a homemaker? One income, divided by 2 or more individuals = distinct tax advantage. Besides, according to the [Concord Coalition](http://www.concordcoalition.org/federal_budget/marriagepenalty.html), the Congressional Budget Office found the marriage penalty is actually a red herring ( especially as you’re using it): > [@](#): > > How Big is the Impact of the Penalty? > > The Congressional Budget Office has concluded that more than 20 million married couples pay higher taxes than they would if they were single, giving rise to a marriage penalty. However, it is important to consider that CBO also concluded that **another 25 million couples receive a marriage bonus, which means that their taxes are lower as a consequence of marriage.** > > More specifically, CBO has estimated that in 1996, just over half of all married couples received marriage bonuses, saving them $1,300 per couple on average. At the same time, a little more than 40 percent of couples incurred penalties, averaging $1,380 per couple. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/91 "2002-08-07T22:36:22Z")
And just how many gay couples have one partner sitting at home? It isn’t like they generally have kids to take care of, the reason many hetero married couples only have one wage-earner. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2002, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/92 "2002-08-07T22:47:57Z")
> [@](#): > > In the fall of 2001, a Kaiser Family Foundation national study of 405 randomly selected, self-identified lesbians, gays, and bisexuals found that 8% of the participants were parents or legal guardians of a child under 18 who lived in their home. From [this site](http://161.58.138.122/bigpicture_numbers.html). A source of much to ponder upon. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005/93 "2002-08-08T16:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*And just how many gay couples have one partner sitting at home? It isn’t like they generally have kids to take care of, the reason many hetero married couples only have one wage-earner. \*\* You’re still ignoring the fact that more than half of couples filing jointly enjoyed a Marriage **Bonus**. Plus, as I’m sure you know, Congress has addressed this issue and by 2005 the standard deductions for joint filers will be adjusted to equal that of two people filing seperately to eliminate that problem. Red Herring. And you’re still focusing on one issue of many. Since you seem too lazy to link to the sites I referenced, I’ll list a few: > [@](#): > > Assumption of Spouse’s Pension > Automatic Inheritance > Automatic Housing Lease Transfer > Bereavement Leave > Burial Determination > Child Custody > Crime Victim’s Recovery Benefits > Divorce Protections > Domestic Violence Protection > Exemption from Property Tax on Partner’s Death > Immunity from Testifying Against Spouse > Insurance Breaks > Joint Adoption and Foster Care > Joint Bankruptcy > Joint Parenting (Insurance Coverage, School Records) > Medical Decisions on Behalf of Partner > Certain Property Rights > Reduced Rate Memberships > Sick Leave to Care for Partner > Visitation of Partner’s Children > Visitation of Partner in Hospital or Prison > Wrongful Death (Loss of Consort) Benefits If you have nothing to add to the conversation, then shut up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-more-progressive-than-u-s/121005.md?page=4)