# South Africa: Recognize same-sex marriage **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 1, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545 "2004-12-01T19:02:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/1 "2004-12-01T19:02:31Z")
In yet another blow for equality, South Africa’s supreme court has ruled that denying marriage to same-sex couples violates the country’s [constitution](http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20041130T190000-0500_70551_OBS_S_AFRICA_S_SUPREME_COURT_RULES_IN_FAVOUR_OF_LESBIAN_MARRIAGE__BUT_.asp). SImilar to the rulings of several Canadian courts, the court in SA found that the common-law definition of marriage must be expanded to encompass same-sex couples. The court, though, has suspended its ruling for two years to give the legislature the opportunity to amend the necessary laws to make it happen. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/2 "2004-12-01T19:09:18Z")
Oops, my bad. Apparently this wasn’t a ruling from SA’s highest court. The court issuing the ruling was the Supreme Court _of Appeals_. If I’m understanding SA’s judiciary structure, the ruling could still be appealed to the Constitutional Court, which is the highest court of the nation. Anyone with a better grasp on the SA court system, please jump in. Still, this is pretty huge. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/3 "2004-12-01T21:55:47Z")
Here is a link to an South African newspaper article on the ruling, with a little more detail: [http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set\_id=1&click\_id=15&art\_id=qw1101812401755B263](http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=15&art_id=qw1101812401755B263) I think the ruling needs to be certified by the Constitutional Court before becoming law, but am not really that aware of the court hierarchy, so someone else would have to verify that. What do you mean by “In yet another blow for equality”? It sounds like an odd way to phrase it if you were personally against the ruling. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/4 "2004-12-01T21:57:00Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > What do you mean by “In yet another blow for equality”? It sounds like an odd way to phrase it if you were personally against the ruling. I’m pretty certain **Otto** is in favour of the ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/5 "2004-12-01T22:08:55Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > I’m pretty certain **Otto** is in favour of the ruling. Indeed. It was a blow _for_ equality. A ruling the other way would have been a blow _to_ equality. Remember the 80s, when South Africa was pretty much the global symbol of _in_equality? ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/6 "2004-12-01T22:57:25Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Indeed. It was a blow _for_ equality. A ruling the other way would have been a blow _to_ equality. > > Remember the 80s, when South Africa was pretty much the global symbol of _in_equality? I’m sorry, my post was a result of misunderstood semantics. I took a “blow for equality” to mean a “blow to equality”. I am South African (although I’ve been living in Florida for a few months now), so I am aware of South Africa’s previous status in the world. How many countries currently recognize same-sex marriage? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/7 "2004-12-01T23:02:48Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > How many countries currently recognize same-sex marriage? Belgium, the Netherlands, six Canadian provinces and one territory, and one American state. Also, legislation is expected to be passed in Spain by the new year. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/8 "2004-12-01T23:12:18Z")
Not to hijack this thread with a triviality, but in reference to the last two posts, I was under the impression that at least some of the Scandinavian countries also recognized SSM. But I may have misunderstood and what they have is civil unions. Perhaps one of the people with knowledge on this subject might clarify. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/9 "2004-12-01T23:52:23Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Not to hijack this thread with a triviality, but in reference to the last two posts, I was under the impression that at least some of the Scandinavian countries also recognized SSM. But I may have misunderstood and what they have is civil unions. Perhaps one of the people with knowledge on this subject might clarify. I thought, further, that England had passed relevant legislation. (not going to touch the to/for equality thing…) ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/10 "2004-12-02T00:05:05Z")
The countries you refer to have civil unions (the creation of a separate status equivalent or similar to marriage), not legalized marriage (in which the existing marriage laws are altered to “two persons” rather than “a man and a woman”). ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/11 "2004-12-02T00:09:03Z")
This [site](http://www.actwin.com/eatonohio/gay/world.htm) looks pretty comprehensive and up-to-date. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/12 "2004-12-02T03:24:57Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > This [site](http://www.actwin.com/eatonohio/gay/world.htm) looks pretty comprehensive and up-to-date. Poking around that site, I’ve discovered that my state representative is the only openly gay state rep in Illinois. But according to them, he’s an “Uncle Tom” who isn’t “on our side 100% of the time”. Golly. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/13 "2004-12-02T04:41:00Z")
Good for South Africa! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/14 "2004-12-02T04:56:29Z")
It’s a sad day when South Africa is more progressive than the US.\* \*Not a dig as in, “Africa is so primitive!” More like-not long ago, Apartheid was the law of the land, and now look at how far they’ve come! ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/15 "2004-12-02T16:03:33Z")
No kidding, **Guin**. I want the Beacon of Hope back, dammit! ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/16 "2004-12-02T16:11:45Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > This [site](http://www.actwin.com/eatonohio/gay/world.htm) looks pretty comprehensive and up-to-date. No, its not. The UK passed a Bill just before the closing of the previous parliamentary session that gave homosexual couples the right to enter into ‘civil unions’ at registry officies, the same way that hetrosexual couples who don’t want a religious ceremony can have a civil ceremony at a registry office. There’s a link [here](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3585819.stm) as to what the main rights and responsibilities are. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/17 "2004-12-02T16:39:28Z")
I did say “pretty” comprehensive and up-to-date… Anyways, the UK bill isn’t quite law yet I don’t believe. Royal Assent is still required; I believe there are also some additional tweakings to the tax laws that have to be done before it goes into effect. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/18 "2004-12-02T17:49:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It’s a sad day when South Africa is more progressive than the US.\* > > \*Not a dig as in, “Africa is so primitive!” More like-not long ago, Apartheid was the law of the land, and now look at how far they’ve come! And Spain was an authoritarian dictatorship thirty years ago, too. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/19 "2004-12-02T17:50:25Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I did say “pretty” comprehensive and up-to-date… > > Anyways, the UK bill isn’t quite law yet I don’t believe. Royal Assent is still required; I believe there are also some additional tweakings to the tax laws that have to be done before it goes into effect. The bill got Royal Assent already, and should be active in 2005: [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Partnership_Act_2004) ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545/20 "2004-12-02T18:13:31Z")
Thanks **matt\_mcl**. I’ll also add that Royal Assent is a mere formality nowadays. If the Bill is passed by a simple majority vote in both Houses (and in some cases, when the Parliament Act is invoked, without the assent of the House of Lords), then Royal Assent is taken for granted. The Monarch really has no real power to veto laws. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-recognize-same-sex-marriage/277545.md?page=2)