# South Africa who does the land belong to? Natives Land Act of 1913 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013 "2015-08-27T02:47:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/1 "2015-08-27T02:47:44Z")
According to this guy, whites: [http://mikesmithspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.de/2011/06/opening-pandoras-apartheid-box-part-32.html](http://mikesmithspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.de/2011/06/opening-pandoras-apartheid-box-part-32.html) > [@](#): > > Apart from a few scattered archeological remains found of black culture in the far northern Transvaal prior to 1652, it is generally agreed that Blacks and Whites were contemporary settlers of South Africa. I use the term “Settler” loosely, because blacks never settled South Africa, their presence was nomadic. Blacks were mere itinerants who traveled from place to place with no fixed home. Whole capital “cities” of grass huts could be moved if grazing was exhausted. > > They had no demarcated areas, no fences, no borders, no maps, no title deeds to proof ownership of any land apart from a verbal claim and mutual understanding that their temporary presence in a certain area in a certain period of time constituted “ownership” of the land. > > They left behind no foundations of buildings, no statues, no roads, no rock paintings, not a single proof of “settlement” of the land, prior to the Whites settling South Africa. The only rock paintings were made by the Bushmen and the Hottentots (Khoi-Khoi and San) in the caves they temporarily occupied. > > In fact, the pyramids of Egypt is proof of white settlement going back thousands of years, so is that of the Phoenicians settling in Carthage and the Greeks settling in Alexandria. The Arabs settled North Africa soon after the Prophet Mohammed died and the whites settled Southern Africa from 1652 onwards. Liar. > **[Ancient Egypt: one of the world's most advanced civilizations- created by...](http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2010/09/blog-post_06.html)** > > 1) Southern Egypt, from which the genesis of Ancient Egypt civilization sprang, lies in the tropical zone, from the Tropics of Cancer to Cap... > **[historymatters.co.za](http://historymatters.co.za/content/south-africa-myth-empty-land-shula-marks-1-january-1980-south-africa)** > > This domain may be for sale! [http://www.nativevillage.org/Editorials/Ancient%20Human%20Metropolis%20Found%20in%20Africa/p1%20ancient\_human\_metropolis\_found\_i.htm](http://www.nativevillage.org/Editorials/Ancient%20Human%20Metropolis%20Found%20in%20Africa/p1%20ancient_human_metropolis_found_i.htm) > **[a- Research Notes2 on the Nile Valley peoples](http://www.geocities.ws/nilevalleypeoples/nilevalleynotes2.htm)** > > Egypt Travel, Liberman, > gods and goddesses, mummification, rulers, pyramids, temples, time, trade, writing, Tours, > Vacations, Ancient Egypt, Culture, History and Egypt shopping, writing, 25th Dynasty, Tarhaqa, > Nubian, Sahara, Levant, Sahel,... [http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2010/05/blog-post\_1754.html](http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2010/05/blog-post_1754.html) > [@](#): > > Did Whites simply take over black land? The answer is no. The elaborate answer can be found in a letter written by the congregation of the short lived Boer Republic of Lydenburg in the name of Dominee A, Smith from Uitenhage in 1860 after continuous accusations by the Cape Government and the Dutch Reform Church that the Voortrekkers were stealing black land and not converting the indigenous people to Christianity. It is documented in the book, “Kerkverraad” by François Richter and Dr X on page 98. Dr. X, sounds reliable…and off course he then goes > [@](#): > > Despite his Coloured or Dutch sounding name, Solomon Tshekiso Plaatje (1876-1932) was a Tswana. He was a black intellectual and writer who could speak seven languages including Dutch and German and who translated Shakespeare into Tswana. He was editor and part-owner of Koranta ea Becoana (Bechuana Gazette) in Mafikeng, and in Kimberley, Tsala ea Becoana (Bechuana Friend) and Tsala ea Batho (The Friend of the People). Plaatje was the first black South African to write a novel in English – Mhudi, (1919). > > In 1914 he wrote a book called, “Native Life in South Africa”, full of anecdotal “evidence” of black dispossession in South Africa. Hardly any real evidence that would stand up in a court of law today. Notice his double standards? Anyone wish to comment? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/2 "2015-08-27T02:56:52Z")
Who has it now? Them. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/3 "2015-08-27T03:18:18Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > Anyone wish to comment? _shrug_ What are we supposed to debate? How big of a tool this blogger is? South Africa _belongs_ to whoever happens to be living there now - white, black, yellow, green, purple. Whoever. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/4 "2015-08-27T03:26:51Z")
Were the Pyramid builders of Egypt “White?” We know they weren’t sub-Saharan “Black,” i.e., they weren’t Ethiopian, Nigerian, Congolese, Angolan, etc. But were they really of the same major branch that we call “White” today? I thought they were non-Semitic, non Indo-European, non-Hittite… How are they generally categorized these days? And…not building permanent structures, etc., is a culturally biased definition of “ownership” of territory. It’s the sort of rule that people who build permanent structures might make up to justify their conquest. (Also…even when civilizations did have permanent structures – Aztecs and Incas come to mind…they got stomped on and their land was taken from them. So, even if it were the “definition” of ownership, there’s no evidence that anybody respected it!) ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/5 "2015-08-27T04:00:21Z")
I was hoping for a discussion of history. Here is what else he says: > [@](#): > > Most credible historical sources and journalistic contributions such as Allister Spark’s book, “The mind of South Africa, The story of the rise and fall of Apartheid” selectively omits the truth about the Natives Land Act of 1913. I will now expose and reveal the truth. > > This law is often quoted by pseudo historians and liberal propagandists to “prove” how “Whites” in South Africa dispossessed “blacks” of their land. > > …until one takes this law under the loop. > > From the start when one researches the 1913 Native Land Act one is confronted with several ironies. > > The act was brought in by Minister J.W. Sauer, a Cape Liberal and Minister of Native Affairs who opposed disenfranchisement of blacks and was widely considered a friend of the Blacks. > > John Tengo Jabavu, a prominent “educated African” and editor since 1876 of the first Xhosa newspaper Isigidimi Sama Xosa (“The Xhosa Messenger”) welcomed the Act. > > How then can this act today be considered as “The original Apartheid Sin”? > > … > > This study proves that contrary to common belief, the 1913 Lands Act resulted in MORE land for blacks not LESS. The act resulted in Blacks increasing their land ownership by 65%. This is conveniently ignored and omitted from contemporary history. > > It proves that at the time Black tribes were farming right next to Whites. It proves that whites were renting land from blacks and vice versa. > > Sometimes Whites and Blacks were farming on the same land in total symbioses without interference from government, taking care of each other and their shared livestock. Liberal journalist Allister Sparks also acknowledges this in his book, “The Mind of South Africa”. > > The study by Feinberg and Horn further proves that the Nationalist government of Barry Hertzog allotted far more white land to blacks than the liberal government of Louis Botha and Jan Smuts. Today, it is believed that the Nationalists brought nothing constructive to South Africa. The Nationalists are vilified to kingdom come by journalists and historians alike. The truth is rather different. > > Quoting from Dlamini’s article… > > “Between 1913 and 1936, for example, Africans bought about 3200 farms and lots outside of native areas. What’s more, the 1913 act was not retroactive, meaning that Africans who already owned land outside of the native reserves could not have it taken away from them. Feinberg and Horn say that between 1913 and 1924, under the governments of Louis Botha and Jan Smuts, there were 302 exemptions granted, amounting to 35% of the total. Between 1924 and 1936, when JB Hertzog was in power, there were 565 exemptions granted, amounting to 65% of the total. “ > > In effect what happened is that blacks could congregate into a group and call themselves a tribe, appoint a “headman” and thus buy white land on a “willing buyer willing seller basis”. Was this legal? Was it ethical? Was it mafia-like conspiracy to steal and encroach on White land? Who stole the land from whom…or was there no stealing whatsoever? > > It is this age old system of “Willing buyer; Willing seller” created by whites and black South Africans themselves that the ANC and Julias Malema want to do away with today. The ANC wants to steal all the land. Now we get into controversy. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/6 "2015-08-27T04:00:34Z")
Racist tripe and rather obvious at that Just three examples: - the author uses the “Hottentot” slur; - has a picture of the old South African flag on his blog; - considers de Klerk a “traitor” for the whole ending apartheid thing Why should we take overt racist nonsense seriously again? ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/7 "2015-08-27T04:03:56Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > I was hoping for a discussion of history. Here is what else he says: > > Now we get into controversy. There is no controversy. It’s all made up nonsense by a racist idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/8 "2015-08-27T04:36:29Z")
I define love as any time I look at you and want to do naughty things. I am currently looking at you and thinking of doing naughty things. Ergo, we are in love. Hey baby, why are you running away? That’s basically the sort of reasoning in the OP. Everything tracks back to an arbitrary definition of land ownership that he has decided overrides everything else. Minus a god that comes down and declares that land ownership starts with permanent structures, his initial starting point is poop. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/9 "2015-08-27T05:24:15Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > Racist tripe and rather obvious at that > > Just three examples: > > - the author uses the “Hottentot” slur; > - has a picture of the old South African flag on his blog; > - considers de Klerk a “traitor” for the whole ending apartheid thing > > Why should we take overt racist nonsense seriously again? For one thing, I know he is wrong about whites taking the land. However, I want to see if he is wrong about his version of history involving that law. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/10 "2015-08-27T05:27:34Z")
I don’t know specifically about South African settlement, but I think there are some claims here which are pretty nonsensical from a general perspective: > [@](#): > > Apart from a few scattered archeological remains found of black culture in the far northern Transvaal prior to 1652, it is generally agreed that Blacks and Whites were contemporary settlers of South Africa. I use the term “Settler” loosely, because blacks never settled South Africa, their presence was nomadic. Blacks were mere itinerants who traveled from place to place with no fixed home. Whole capital “cities” of grass huts could be moved if grazing was exhausted. So what? Nomadic peoples have property rights. It is true that legal regimes have been generally slow to recognize the property rights of nomadic people, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. And most importantly for this discussion, during the colonial periods, Western governments did start to recognize property rights for nomadic peoples. For example, the US and Britain signed a a treaty in 1794 (The Treaty of Amity, Commerce and Navigation) which recognized nomadic rights for cross-border migration between Canada and the US. I could do a whole list of these, and governments could (and still should) do a much better job of portecting nomadic property rights, but the idea that nomads had no property rights under British law is pretty much nonsense. > [@](#): > > They had no demarcated areas, no fences, no borders, no maps, no title deeds to proof ownership of any land apart from a verbal claim and mutual understanding that their temporary presence in a certain area in a certain period of time constituted “ownership” of the land. Now, this is funny. Common law systems have never relied solely of any of these things as the sole means of establishing ownership, because common law systems recognize that ownership can be establish through usage (see, for example, adverse possession). Common law systems do tend to give more weight to things like demarcation, maps and titles, but none of these are necessary to establish ownership and in some cases may be overridden by other ownership claims. This claim shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how property rights are established in common law systems. Furthermore, in many cases the British incorporated previous property regimes wholesale or partially when they colonized. They had to, because otherwise things would have been thrown into chaos and people would have rebelled. I don’t really know what happened in South Africa, but my guess is that if I went and looked, the British would have given some weight to pre-colonization property claims, either through treaty or legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/11 "2015-08-27T06:05:24Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > Racist tripe and rather obvious at that > > Just three examples: > > - the author uses the “Hottentot” slur; > - has a picture of the old South African flag on his blog; > - considers de Klerk a “traitor” for the whole ending apartheid thing > > Why should we take overt racist nonsense seriously again? He also fails to note that De Klerk did this after first having a specific election on whether or not to end Apartheid and most South African Whites voted to get rid of it ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/12 "2015-08-27T08:22:23Z")
OK, I’ll play. let’s deal with the OP’s extract: > [@](#): > > Apart from a few scattered archeological remains found of black culture in the far northern Transvaal prior to 1652, it is generally agreed that Blacks and Whites were contemporary settlers of South Africa. Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Black settlement in South Africa predated European by hundreds of years. Blacks had displaced Khoikhoi as far as the Fish river before Europeans first rounded the Cape. Bantus were in the areas currently occupied by the Zulu people as early as 250 BCE. > [@](#): > > I use the term “Settler” loosely, because blacks never settled South Africa, their presence was nomadic. Blacks were mere itinerants who traveled from place to place with no fixed home. Again, pure bullshit. South African Blacks were settled agriculturalists not nomadic pastoralists. > [@](#): > > They had no demarcated areas, no fences, no borders, All [pure bullshit.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machadodorp#baKoni_Ruins) > [@](#): > > no maps, no title deeds to proof ownership of any land apart from a verbal claim It’s true they were a pre-literate society. That doesn’t mean they didn’t have a legal system including land ownership. > [@](#): > > They left behind no foundations of buildings, no statues, no roads, no rock paintings, not a single proof of “settlement” of the land, prior to the Whites settling South Africa. [Bullshit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Mapungubwe) > [@](#): > > The only rock paintings were made by the Bushmen and the Hottentots (Khoi-Khoi and San) in the caves they temporarily occupied. Firstly, as noted, Hottentot is just an ethnic slur. Secondly, he mixes up which is which. Thirdly, Khoe-khoen didn’t live in caves, they lived in domed huts, virtually identical to [wigwams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigwam). Fourthly - when the San did use caves, they didn’t use them just as temporary shelter, they returned to the same caves again and again, seasonally. To the point of building up tens of metres of midden spoil… Transhumance is “temporary” occupation of a site, but it’s ridiculous to suggest it’s free of any ownership. Go on, move into a Swiss herder’s summer cabin, see how ‘temporary’ he thinks it is. > [@](#): > > In fact, the pyramids of Egypt is proof of white settlement going back thousands of years Dynastic Egyptians weren’t white. ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/13 "2015-08-27T08:41:51Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > For one thing, I know he is wrong about whites taking the land. However, I want to see if he is wrong about his version of history involving that law. I’m not returning to a racist blog to see what you are referring to. If you have a serious question about the Natives Land Act, put it into your own words and I’ll do my best to answer. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/14 "2015-08-27T09:09:22Z")
One point about the second extract: > [@](#): > > This study proves that contrary to common belief, the 1913 Lands Act resulted in MORE land for blacks not LESS. The act resulted in Blacks increasing their land ownership by 65%. This is conveniently ignored and omitted from contemporary history. What the blogger omits is that this was truly shitty, barely usable marginal land in Bantustans. It’s disingenuous to just look at land area, especially since pre-act, most Black farmers had been tenants anyway, so wouldn’t be listed as owning the (good) farmland they worked. Afterwards, they needed to get land in the areas restricted to them. So yes, there may have been an increase in outright ownership. Doesn’t mean Jack. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/15 "2015-08-27T09:42:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Dynastic Egyptians weren’t white. Some were most were not. And one dynasty was sub saharan African in origin. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/16 "2015-08-27T10:08:07Z")
First I really shouldn’t read shit like this while I’m at work, because now I’m pissed off and distracted. Second I really really shouldn’t have read the comments on that page because now I want to smash something. Thirdly for some reason whenever white south africans talk about land claims and land restitution they focus on farmland. They always ignore the hundreds of thousands of people who were forcibly removed from urban areas. We are talking about home owners who had their land confiscated and their houses bulldozed because the area was declared whites only. For example; there is a large open field near my house that used to contain a couple hundred houses before being flattened in the fifties. That ground has now been sold to a developer and somebody is about to make millions building a new office park. And the people that used to live there? They might get compensation but it will be a token amount at best. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/17 "2015-08-27T10:28:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And…not building permanent structures, etc., is a culturally biased definition of “ownership” of territory. It’s the sort of rule that people who build permanent structures might make up to justify their conquest. [Do you have a flag?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/18 "2015-08-27T12:58:41Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Some were most were not. Which native dynasty was White? I am of course discounting foreign invaders like the Hyksos or for that matter the Kushite dynasty (although the latter was _culturally_ way more Egyptian than the former). But more specifically, the _pyramid-building dynasties_ weren’t White. They weren’t Black, either. They were their own thing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/19 "2015-08-27T13:01:20Z")
> [@yendis](#): > > Thirdly for some reason whenever white south africans talk about land claims and land restitution they focus on farmland. Well, their identity is so wrapped up in it, isn’t it, down to their name for themselves (speaking of the Boere here, not the _souties_) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/20 "2015-08-27T13:44:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Which native dynasty was White? I am of course discounting foreign invaders like the Hyksos or for that matter the Kushite dynasty (although the latter was _culturally_ way more Egyptian than the former). But more specifically, the _pyramid-building dynasties_ weren’t White. They weren’t Black, either. They were their own thing. Well the Ptolomies obviously. 😉 Ramses dynasty was probably of foreign origin too, hence the red hair and the hitherto unprecedented revering of Seth. (Ramses I was an official in the Delta before he ascended the throne). Of course “white” is an unhelpful term (and inaccurate as well as in “black”). I am just going by what phentotype the individual would have been. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013.md?page=2)