# South Africa who does the land belong to? Natives Land Act of 1913 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013 "2015-08-27T02:47:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/21 "2015-08-27T14:10:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Well the Ptolomies obviously. 😉 Oh, true - although I don’t really think of anything after Alexander’s conquest as “Dynastic Egypt” even though they’re the last dynasty. > [@](#): > > Ramses dynasty was probably of foreign origin too, hence the red hair and the hitherto unprecedented revering of Seth. (Ramses I was an official in the Delta before he ascended the throne). Yes, from the former Hyksos stronghold. Although red hair and aquiline noses aren’t exclusively White characteristics. > [@](#): > > Of course “white” is an unhelpful term (and inaccurate as well as in “black”). I am just going by what phentotype the individual would have been. That’s what I mean by “their own thing” - Egyptians in art almost never look conventionally Caucasian to me (Nefertiti being the big exception), and _mostly_ don’t look conventionally Sub-saharan either (except that Kushite dynasty). But they _do_ tend to have a consistent look - or at least, the Old and Intermediate Kingdoms stuff do. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/22 "2015-08-27T14:12:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > One point about the second extract: > What the blogger omits is that this was truly shitty, barely usable marginal land in Bantustans. It’s disingenuous to just look at land area, especially since pre-act, most Black farmers had been tenants anyway, so wouldn’t be listed as owning the (good) farmland they worked. Afterwards, they needed to get land in the areas restricted to them. So yes, there may have been an increase in outright ownership. Doesn’t mean Jack. In other words they left out context on how the land was tended to. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/23 "2015-08-27T14:17:17Z")
> [@WilyQuixote](#): > > I’m not returning to a racist blog to see what you are referring to. If you have a serious question about the Natives Land Act, put it into your own words and I’ll do my best to answer. Did the act benefit the black natives more than the white ones? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/24 "2015-08-27T14:40:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, true - although I don’t really think of anything after Alexander’s conquest as “Dynastic Egypt” even though they’re the last dynasty.Yes, from the former Hyksos stronghold. Although red hair and aquiline noses aren’t exclusively White characteristics. > That’s what I mean by “their own thing” - Egyptians in art almost never look conventionally Caucasian to me (Nefertiti being the big exception), and _mostly_ don’t look conventionally Sub-saharan either (except that Kushite dynasty). But they _do_ tend to have a consistent look - or at least, the Old and Intermediate Kingdoms stuff do. Hmmm, [Prince Rahotep does not look Caucasian. His wife? Yes.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Ra%27_Hotep_%26_his_wife_Nefert..jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/25 "2015-08-27T15:34:22Z")
But that range of skin tones could easily occur even between identical twins. One person works out in the sun, the other person stays inside covered up. Or it could be an idealized difference…women, at least noblewomen, are supposed to stay inside covered up so they are depicted as light skinned, while men are supposed to be outside slaying Hittites or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/26 "2015-08-27T15:55:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Hmmm, [Prince Rahotep does not look Caucasian. His wife? Yes.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Ra%27_Hotep_%26_his_wife_Nefert..jpg) I don’t see race in that picture at all. I see “nice tits”. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/27 "2015-08-27T16:13:44Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > Did the act benefit the black natives more than the white ones? The Act set aside 10% of the country as “scheduled native areas”, then forbid natives from buying land outside those areas; and non-natives from buying land within those areas. So, the whites got to divvy up 90% of the land, and the blacks got 10%. Who do you think benefitted more? ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/28 "2015-08-27T17:13:49Z")
Funny how the blogger forgets to mention that. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/29 "2015-08-27T17:35:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But that range of skin tones could easily occur even between identical twins. One person works out in the sun, the other person stays inside covered up. Or it could be an idealized difference…women, at least noblewomen, are supposed to stay inside covered up so they are depicted as light skinned, while men are supposed to be outside slaying Hittites or whatever. In any human population, males tend to have darker pigmentation on average than females, regardless of time spent indoors vs outdoors. However, it was also a convention in Egyptian art to depict [women (and girls) as having paler skin than males.](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/22/bf/6c/22bf6c8317413b1d43c07cdc3d1319dc.jpg) It had nothing to do with race. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/30 "2015-08-27T17:36:08Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > Funny how the blogger forgets to mention that. Are you saying it’s not true? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/31 "2015-08-27T17:36:21Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > Funny how the blogger forgets to mention that. Based on the comments, he’s writing for a white supremacist audience; not a crowd that’s noted for being sticklers for historical accuracy Oh, and to put that 90/10 split into context: per the 1911 [Census](http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101031665449;view=1up;seq=12), at the time South Africa contained 1,278,025 whites and 4,061,082 natives. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/32 "2015-08-27T21:37:14Z")
So what about that report he mentions? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/33 "2015-08-27T21:52:12Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > So what about that report he mentions? It’s fairly short, if you wish to read it. It states that the process in the law for exceptions to the land-buying prohibition to be granted was sometimes used, in areas selected by the Natives Land Commission. It was apparent even in 1913 that the scheduled native areas were badly overcrowded (that’s what happens when you put 70% of the people on 7% of the land), so they were gradually expanded, and some land purchases approved. This occurred mostly in the period of 1924-1929. Thus, it’s correct to note that the Natives Land Act _restricted_ land sales, it didn’t _prohibit_ them. This doesn’t change the intent of the Act, and I for one will decline to laud the South African government for doing the bare minimum to alleviate the overcrowding and misery that they caused. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/34 "2015-08-28T00:08:12Z")
Thanks 🙂 It doesn’t explain why South Africa is the way it is now. [http://www.censorbugbear.org/farmitracker/reports](http://www.censorbugbear.org/farmitracker/reports) This is a more objective archive of crime in SA…And it doesn’t look good. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/35 "2015-08-28T00:19:22Z")
On another matter was Mandela’s attachment to communism: [http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9116391/the-mandela-files/](http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9116391/the-mandela-files/) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/36 "2015-08-28T00:20:49Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > This is a more objective archive of crime in SA… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/37 "2015-08-28T01:21:08Z")
> [@ryu238](#): > > Thanks 🙂 > It doesn’t explain why South Africa is the way it is now. > [http://www.censorbugbear.org/farmitracker/reports](http://www.censorbugbear.org/farmitracker/reports) > This is a more objective archive of crime in SA…And it doesn’t look good. > [@ryu238](#): > > On another matter was Mandela’s attachment to communism: [http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9116391/the-mandela-files/](http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9116391/the-mandela-files/) So you don’t get any traction with your original premise, you decide to play bait and switch? A lot of why “South Africa is the way it is now” is because of the way blacks were treated by whites for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/38 "2015-08-28T01:31:28Z")
No. That is true. Among other things. > **[The Anti-Racialist Q & A - UPDATES ongoing • The Prussian](https://skepticink.com/prussian/2014/03/31/the-anti-racialist-q-a/)** > > “Ideas precede accomplishment.  Race, to the extent that it exists, is a fact.  Nations and Cultures are ideas.  The racial… > [@](#): > > This is where the part of SSSSM about the interplay between society and biology becomes extremely important. Here are some things we know depress IQ scores: > > Pollution > Malnutrition / Hunger > Parasites > And guess what? These are extremely widespread throughout Africa. > > Let me take them in order: > > 1. Pollution has a horrible effect on children’s IQ. There are a lot of small-scale, artisanal miners throughout Africa, and they use mercury – a substance that comprehensively messes up entire communities, and sabotages children’s IQ development. Then there are other substances, like lead and hydrocarbons also depress IQ. Then there are all the problems caused by having to cook your food on an open fire and inhale all that smoke… > > 2. Malnutrition’s effect on mental development is completely uncontroversial; study after study show the same thing – poor nutrition for kids and for pregnant women is bad for brain development. > > 3. Parasites are such a problem for mental development that even in the US you find them as an effect. Imagine how bad it is in sub-Saharan Africa. > > This is why we talk about the ‘Flynn effect’. The fact is that IQ scores keep having to be renormalised because they keep rising, so a significant chunk of Africa probably has higher IQ scores than Europeans did when we ruled the world. In addition: [https://www.quora.com/Why-did-life-expectancy-fall-in-South-Africa-during-the-years-since-the-end-of-Apartheid/answers/7036210](https://www.quora.com/Why-did-life-expectancy-fall-in-South-Africa-during-the-years-since-the-end-of-Apartheid/answers/7036210) > [@](#): > > HIV and AIDS probably caused the decline in life expectancy. > > The early 90’s, when HIV was taking hold was marked by a lame-duck white government that couldn’t govern legitimately, followed by a new democratic government that was inexperienced and faced massive challenges. > > Numerous problems were exacerbated at this time: violent crime, a deterioration in public transport, a deterioration in roads and infrastructure, a disaster in public school education, deterioration in public healthcare and in the civil service. Mbeki in particular was also content to dabble in AIDS denialism (don’t foget that during Mandela’s term, particulary from 1996, he was basically running the country). > > The government is slowly getting to grips with some of these issues (education being an exception), and the availability of ARV drugs should improve the life expectancy picture dramatically in the next few years. ---
**Author:** ![ryu238](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@ryu238](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ryu238)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/39 "2015-08-28T02:28:38Z")
Another thing to know is the off repeated claim that in his autobiography “lpng walk to freedom” He apparently states that he ordered several terrorist bombings…off course this repeated without showing the ‘confession’ > ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013/40 "2015-08-28T02:39:37Z")
Is there gonna be a seltzer crane in this one? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-africa-who-does-the-land-belong-to-natives-land-act-of-1913/729013.md?page=3)