# South African leader Jan Smuts **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 15, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633 "2009-11-15T04:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2009, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/21 "2009-11-21T10:11:09Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Until recently they were paid considerably less than British troops, which reflected the tripartite agreement between Britain, India and Pakistan in 1947 that the rates of pay among Gurkha battalions parcelled out fairly arbitrarily between the three armies should remain comparable. Nonetheless, their pension payments made them some of the better-off people in Nepal. Pakistan never got (nor asked for unlike in the case of the Jat and Rajput regiments) any Ghurka Battalions. The British attempted a similar agreement with regards to the Frontier Force Regiment, but the agreemnet stalled. I beleive the tripartite agreemnet was with UK, India and Nepal. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/22 "2009-11-22T06:18:25Z")
Two interesting Smuts anecdotes. First, a descendant, David Smuts, is a lawyer in Namibia who long worked for Namibian independence from South African oppression in the 70’s and 80’s. Second, it was more than once reported that Smuts’ was so esteemed by Ronald Reagan that the President didn’t recognize the ensuing changes in South African politics (the post WWII/post Smuts legal implementation of apartheid) and wouldn’t pressure South Africa to change because they’d been our WWII allies. The issue was so important in the 80’s that Secretary of State George Schultz was so inflamed that he reportedly threatened to resign over it. Schultz doesn’t deny the reports, as far as I know, but they do make him look good, so why should he? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/23 "2009-11-22T06:38:58Z")
I think Reagan’s resistance to pressure South Africa was more due to the realpolitik consideration that the South African government was fiercely anti-Communist, and that the ANC was pro-Communist and backed by the Soviets and Cubans. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/24 "2009-11-22T07:21:22Z")
Yes, the ensuing ANC governments have been highly communist, haven’t they. Have you seen nationalization all around, no valid elections, no free press, severe limitations on travel, censorship of the internet, lots of internal exile and labor camps, corruption among the rulers (well, some of that, of course, but nothing like the Soviets or the Chinese, or the Cubans)? The conservative notion that the ANC was highly communist, as opposed to allied the with South African Communist Party in the fight against apartheid was just not the case, and, rightly, not believed by the State Department in the Reagan Administration. They just didn’t argue against it in public, because they were loyal to the President. But they knew and had relatively good respect for Thabo Mbeki, for instance. As for realpolitik, SA was so remote an outpost that it’s danger, even if it became Communist, was minimal. Look at Mgabe’s Zimbabwe, for instance; now there’s a guy who’s a Marxist problem. His history is that he’s driven his country into the ditch, all of Africa knows it, and it’s not like some sort of beacon of hope for the rest of Africa–it’s exactly the opposite. The same would have happened to SA. Don’t know that Mods might want to move this to GD…I’ve made my case, folks can take or leave it as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/25 "2009-11-22T07:29:14Z")
Oh, and I’m saying that Smuts was cited by Reagan as a reason to support them. Thought that was obvious, but maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/26 "2009-11-22T07:51:25Z")
> [@Notassmartasithought](#): > > Yes, the ensuing ANC governments have been highly communist, haven’t they. Have you seen nationalization all around, no valid elections, no free press, severe limitations on travel, censorship of the internet, lots of internal exile and labor camps, corruption among the rulers (well, some of that, of course, but nothing like the Soviets or the Chinese, or the Cubans)? The ANC government hasn’t carried out the things you’re talking about. But when they were a guerilla/underground movement, they were allied to the Communist Party of South Africa, they had Communist members (Joe Slovo, most notably), received financial support from the Soviets, and so on. This really isn’t controversial, and I don’t know why you’re taking offense at it. ---
**Author:** ![Notassmartasithought](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c0e974/32.png) [@Notassmartasithought](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Notassmartasithought)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/27 "2009-11-22T08:05:41Z")
Hardly offended, just trying to express what is my experience of the truth, after having been fairly closely involved in it in those days. And in the same way that President Reagan acted emotionally and impulsively when he suddenly agreed to arms cuts at the summit in Iceland that hadn’t been thought through, his emotional commitment to the country of Jan Smuts, even though he wasn’t clear about the changes since Smuts’ time, motivated his reluctance to challenge any South African government. That’s just how he worked. And in each case, he knew that there was a substantial political camp in favor of what he did, so he didn’t worry about it. But the political camps’ rationales weren’t what motivated him. It was his own personal experience that did. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/28 "2009-11-22T22:37:26Z")
May I suggest any interested party start another thread on the Reagan Administration’s policy towards South Africa, or the ANC’s alleged communist tendencies, and we limit this one to Smuts. And may I say I’m gratified - if surprised - that no one’s made a “smutty” joke yet. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/29 "2009-11-23T00:15:02Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And may I say I’m gratified - if surprised - that no one’s made a “smutty” joke yet. 😉 Ah, now you’ve jinxed it! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/30 "2009-11-23T01:56:36Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > May I suggest any interested party start another thread on the Reagan Administration’s policy towards South Africa, or the ANC’s alleged communist tendencies, and we limit this one to Smuts. > > And may I say I’m gratified - if surprised - that no one’s made a “smutty” joke yet. 😉 I would have … but someone already made Botha them! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/31 "2009-11-23T05:59:10Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I would have … but someone already made Botha them! 😛 Not to mention that the thread would be rather Boer-ing 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/32 "2009-11-23T09:06:04Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Not to mention that the thread would be rather Boer-ing 😛 Well, ain’t this a separate development! Maybe we should concentrate this camp elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/33 "2009-11-25T09:49:46Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > The entire British Raj was eventually nicked from the East India Company, FWIW… And quite correctly too. As I learn more about our history, I’m repeatedly astonished by the behaviour of the East India Company - and that they were allowed (encouraged) to get away with it. Interestingly they were the cause of the Boston Tea Party, they were exempt from tax on tea in the Americas, and nobody else was - a form of monopoly by subsidy. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633/34 "2009-11-25T10:51:19Z")
> [@FRDE](#): > > And quite correctly too. > As I learn more about our history, I’m repeatedly astonished by the behaviour of the East India Company - and that they were allowed (encouraged) to get away with it. Oh, I agree completely that the British Government needed to relieve the East India Company of its responsibilities _vis a vis_ India. I wasn’t making a value call, just clarifying the historical background for people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-leader-jan-smuts/517633.md?page=1)