# South African Rape Survey **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212 "2009-06-18T19:34:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/21 "2009-06-19T05:35:16Z")
This is purely an idea I am throwing out with no proof one way or the other, but I would bet if you asked a bunch of young men/boys how many were sexually active it would be skewed towards more sex because they think it makes them cool. Now it’s absolutely deplorable that a society would think it’s _en vogue_ to commit rape, but is that possible here? I realize it’s anonymous, but if you ask a bunch of guys how big their penis is it’s typically 20% larger than scientific studies because to many people larger penis size is desirable. People lie on “anonymous” surveys all the time. I don’t know that this is the case here, but I certainly hope so as numbers are truly sickening. The men on men rape was most surprising to me. Unless there was a large amount of gay men, it seemed to go beyond solely a sexual gratification and into a battle for dominance and power. Really sickening. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/22 "2009-06-19T05:41:01Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > Thanks, I am. But then we don’t get that patented ‘I won’t rape you over it’ wit much where I go out. I mean, there’s a time and place for every type of (clever) joke, but this is fucking dire information. I guess it’s a good thing I didn’t do my joke about why the America soccer team didn’t perform well today. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/23 "2009-06-19T07:08:29Z")
> [@Caveat\_lector\_1](#): > > They’d only have a problem with fessing up if they saw something wrong with what they did. If rape isn’t viewed as negative in their culture or sub-culture why not fess up? Also, if it has reached this level of commonness I’d be surprised if there is much successful prosecution going on so they wouldn’t be at risk either. What’s the possibility these people were falsely boasting? And lying about their education, and earnings too? But still, probably won’t change the numbers too much. What’s funny is that for most men it was once, during youth, a long time ago. Like some youthful indiscretion a western man might carry out. But ANYWAY, anyway, we don’t really know what was asked. I really doubt the men were asked “did you violently beat a woman and vigorously insert yourself as she wept.” They were probably asked something different, and probably admitted to something different. And I know many of you want to claim that there’s only one kind of rape, the horrible kind, but that’s not true. There’s violent rape, date rape, even consensual statutory “rape.” So I’d like to get the definitions straight. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/24 "2009-06-19T07:35:44Z")
> [@](#): > > And I know many of you want to claim that there’s only one kind of rape, the horrible kind, but that’s not true. There’s violent rape, date rape, even consensual statutory “rape.” So I’d like to get the definitions straight. Yes, not all rape is violent sociopathic “stranger in a dark alley rape” Still date/aquatiance rape can be violent too. Not all date rape is about “misunderstanding” I do have to say that I think rapists are the most fucked up self centered people EVER. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/25 "2009-06-19T09:00:04Z")
South African here, Firstly the study was done in only KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape 2 out of 9 provinces and both provinces have large numbers of poor living in awful conditions. So extending the findings to the rest of the country with different cultures, languages and wealth is problematic. Also on the point about education having finished high school does not mean you are actually educated, the pass marks for Grade 12 (called Matric) are 40% for Maths and First Language and 33% for four other subjects and the pass rate for the final exams in those provinces is about 65%. So even if many of those who admit rape are better educated, _in relation to their peers_, it does not mean they are well educated. The income numbers are also low, R500 a month is about $60 and someone earning R10 000 a month is Upper Class in South Africa but approx lower middle class in the US or UK. I earn R10 000 and cannot come close to affording even a small house (1 Million Rand in Cape Town) or a new car (R150 000) plus insurance and living expenses on just my salary. So the study tells us the 1 in 4 men in specific areas and income groups are rapists but this cannot be extended to the entire country with such a limited (geographically) sample population. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/26 "2009-06-19T09:00:56Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Ah yes, what young man can forget his first gang rape? It’s practically a rite of passage. You may joke, but in some communities, that’s exactly what it is. It wouldn’t surprise me if the numbers were even higher in my home province, the Western Cape, than in the two provinces surveyed. I’ve heard of studies showing one in three women in my city have been raped at least once. And of those, unlike say the US where I think you’ll find date rape is more the dominant mode, here it really is the gang rapes that are accounting for the high numbers. One in fucking three, man. Nothing excuses that. Even to look at the roots in historic trauma, while understandable from a “why the fuck do they do it?” viewpoint, still seems to diminish the wrongness somehow, and I don’t like that. And I say this as one of those one-in-ten men who has been raped. Twice. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/27 "2009-06-19T09:15:34Z")
> [@dgrdfd](#): > > This is purely an idea I am throwing out with no proof one way or the other, but I would bet if you asked a bunch of young men/boys how many were sexually active it would be skewed towards more sex because they think it makes them cool. Now it’s absolutely deplorable that a society would think it’s _en vogue_ to commit rape, but is that possible here? I realize it’s anonymous, but if you ask a bunch of guys how big their penis is it’s typically 20% larger than scientific studies because to many people larger penis size is desirable. People lie on “anonymous” surveys all the time. > > I don’t know that this is the case here, but I certainly hope so as numbers are truly sickening. The men on men rape was most surprising to me. Unless there was a large amount of gay men, it seemed to go beyond solely a sexual gratification and into a battle for dominance and power. Really sickening. That’s exactly what I was thinking. Give a 13 year old boy in the UK anonymity and ask him if he ever smokes pot, and 99 times out of 100 he’ll tell you he smokes sack loads of it. It’s sad and disturbing that SA males feel the need to adopt to that “coolness” factor, but it doesn’t make them any less likely to be liars. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/28 "2009-06-19T09:17:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You may joke, but in some communities, that’s exactly what it is. The problem exists in some parts of the UK according to a Dispatches documentary. Although unsurprisingly the [view is contested](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/tv-gang-rape-documentary-angers-blacks-groups-1185625.html). > [@](#): > > The protest in central London has been called by the National Assembly Against Racism, which is accusing the programme of demonising young black men and feeding stereotypes that associate them with sexual violence. But the documentary, to be broadcast tomorrow night as part of Channel 4’s Dispatches series, was applauded by some black commentators for highlighting a disturbing phenomenon. They said it was time for a rational debate about an unpalatable subject. > > The programme-makers, Laurel Productions, identified 14 cases of juvenile gang rape tried by the courts since 1996. Of these, nine were carried out by all-black gangs, it says, and all but one of the rest by mixed groups that included Afro-Caribbean youths. > > Eighty-six per cent of the 79 youths charged with rape or indecent assault in the 14 cases were black, researchers found. In one case in Birmingham, the ringleaders were aged just 12 and 13. > > The majority of victims were black girls. > > The validity of the statistics and the methodology of the research were attacked yesterday by several academics, including Dr Tony Sewell, a professor of education at the University of Leeds, who took part in a post-broadcast studio discussion. He condemned the documentary as “sloppy journalism”. > > Professor Mike Hough, a criminologist at South Bank University, said: “I would look first to social rather than ethnic factors to explain these figures. The racial explanation is almost certainly wrong, but it will resonate with certain people.” [Here](http://www.newstatesman.com/200106250016) is an interesting article by Marcus Howe, a noted UK black academic and activist, on the white anti-rascist response to the doc and him saying ‘yep, it’s true’. > [@](#): > > Channel 4, aware of the ambulance-chasers in the anti-racist brigade, felt they could not broadcast this huge truth without some counterbalance. They wanted me to chair a studio discussion, to go out immediately after the report, in which the issues would be aired. > > I cancelled my trip to South Africa. I knew the terrain well. Gang rape was part of the urban culture in which I grew up. I entered my teens in a working-class ghetto in Port of Spain, peopled by gangs based on the Diggers and Stompers of America. I was a Style-Cramper and a Law-Breaker. Other gangs were Spike Jones and the Fallen Angels, the Apple Jackers and Sun Valley. We fought each other over teenage loves and territory. Gang rape initiated male virgins into sex. And if you didn’t share, the others would take your girlfriend away. > [@](#): > > In the past few days, statistics have been published revealing that black men outnumber any other ethnic group in the brutal game of rape. And their victims are black women. Off to Lee Jasper went a journalist for a quote, and this is what he said: “We will have to discuss this in the black community.” Discuss what, I ask, and with whom and for what purpose? > > Three years ago, Jasper fought against me tooth and nail for placing the responsibility where it lay. He continues to jib and jive, and, as we say in the local lingo, prips around the issue. My line is lean, mean and clear: I take a side in this war, the side of black women. I have four daughters whom I join in the bunker; there is nothing to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/29 "2009-06-19T11:02:54Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Same as I’ve always said about airline flights - just give a gun to everyone as they get on. Much cheaper than all this pointless searching. . . And know you’re joking (or I hope so), but what happens when someone shoots out a window? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/30 "2009-06-19T12:32:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You may joke, but in some communities, that’s exactly what it is. It wouldn’t surprise me if the numbers were even higher in my home province, the Western Cape, than in the two provinces surveyed. I’ve heard of studies showing one in three women in my city have been raped at least once. And of those, unlike say the US where I think you’ll find date rape is more the dominant mode, here it really is the gang rapes that are accounting for the high numbers. > > One in fucking three, man. Nothing excuses that. Even to look at the roots in historic trauma, while understandable from a “why the fuck do they do it?” viewpoint, still seems to diminish the wrongness somehow, and I don’t like that. > > And I say this as one of those one-in-ten men who has been raped. Twice. Actually, roaming gangs raping is also an european historical thing as well … if you read Barbara Tuchmans Through a distant Mirror, she works with judicial records of 14th century france and germany and despite the required marking of prostitutes by clothing and decorations gangs would actually break into homes and rape women and girls, and if they were on the streets after dark, even legitimatly [such as a midwife going to/reom a confinement] they stood the chance of being raped unless accompanied by a linkman and a bodyguard/male escort. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/31 "2009-06-19T13:27:57Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Actually, roaming gangs raping is also an european historical thing as well … if you read Barbara Tuchmans Through a distant Mirror, she works with judicial records of 14th century france and germany and despite the required marking of prostitutes by clothing and decorations gangs would actually break into homes and rape women and girls, and if they were on the streets after dark, even legitimatly [such as a midwife going to/reom a confinement] they stood the chance of being raped unless accompanied by a linkman and a bodyguard/male escort. No chance of Starving Artist coming along to regale us with his ramblings about the Good Old Days then? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/32 "2009-06-19T14:31:20Z")
What would the rate be in the United States? It’s commonly [reported](http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html) that one in four or one in five American women have been the victim of a completed or attempted rape. Someone’s doing all that raping. Even if we assume that some men are responsible for multiple acts of sexual violence, can the number of victims really get that high without a correspondingly gigantic number of attackers? ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/33 "2009-06-19T15:19:54Z")
> [@yendis](#): > > South African here, > … > So the study tells us the 1 in 4 men in specific areas and income groups are rapists but this cannot be extended to the entire country with such a limited (geographically) sample population. Thanks for that perspective, **yendis**. It’s helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/34 "2009-06-19T16:06:32Z")
Maybe this is a dumb question but, then again, this seems so incredible to me… I wonder if the term “rape” was even used. I wonder if there was a phrase like, “Used force to have sex with a woman”. I mean, would that many men answer yes to the question, “Are you a rapist”? But maybe more would find it acceptable to sany, “Yes, I’ve forced a woman to have sex”. Then again, it probably doesn’t matter anyway. Depressing… ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/35 "2009-06-19T16:37:59Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > And know you’re joking (or I hope so), but what happens when someone shoots out a window? I am joking, but not entirely. The point is that there needs ot be a major upheaval in the power balance. Major to the point of seriously shocking the populace. Best way I know how to do it is to arm the women. Although, if it’s mainly gang rapes, they’ll need automatics. . . and some sort of harness so it can’t be taken away from them easily. . . ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/36 "2009-06-19T16:39:11Z")
I’m somewhat curious at the surprise being expressed here (though obviously this is horrifying to contemplate). [1 in 6](http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims) American women over the age of 12 report having been the victim of a rape or attempted rape. The figure is something like 1 in 4 for women between 18 and 24. On preview, I see that **Tom Tildrum** has already addressed this. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/37 "2009-06-19T16:44:03Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I wonder if the term “rape” was even used. I wonder if there was a phrase like, “Used force to have sex with a woman”. I mean, would that many men answer yes to the question, “Are you a rapist”? But maybe more would find it acceptable to sany, “Yes, I’ve forced a woman to have sex”. That’s a reasonable point, and why a lot of those surveys about how 24% of all college women have been raped because they include “having sex when you are drunk” as “rape”. I did a bit more research, but I can’t find anywhere where they gave the definition of rape as used in the study. Dunno. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/38 "2009-06-19T16:55:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s a reasonable point, and why a lot of those surveys about how 24% of all college women have been raped because they include “having sex when you are drunk” as “rape”. I had not considered that point. It’s worth noting that in Florida, if two people have sex and both are under the influence, either party can report the encounter and the other party is essentially automatically guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/39 "2009-06-19T17:16:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I had not considered that point. > > It’s worth noting that in Florida, if two people have sex and both are under the influence, either party can report the encounter and the other party is essentially automatically guilty. You should always consider that point in discussions of sex crimes. Such laws/views are messed up, and the reason I would give a big :dubious: to any such numbers coming out of America. But Mr. Dribble’s account seems to paint the picture rather differently in Africa. > [@Mr Dribble](#): > > unlike say the US where I think you’ll find date rape is more the dominant mode, here it really is the gang rapes that are accounting for the high numbers. > > And I say this as one of those one-in-ten men who has been raped. Twice. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/40 "2009-06-19T17:33:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I had not considered that point. > > It’s worth noting that in Florida, if two people have sex and both are under the influence, either party can report the encounter and the other party is essentially automatically guilty. I call bullshit, or in local parlance, cite? There is so much turd in this, where to begin? First, the use of the word “report.” I can report you to the Miami po-pos for eating a Snicker bar, but they aren’t going to do shit about it. Second, assuming you mean the cops will actual initiate a criminal investigation based on someone simply saying “I got drunk and got laid. I am now upset” you’re wrong, as you’ve missed an element of the crime of rape - absence of consent (just being “drunk” doesn’t deprive someone of the ability to consent; there are plenty of threads on this, if you want to learn something). At the very least there has to be some allegation that the sex was non-consensual (and it can’t be an “I wanna do-over” scenario). Even then, this business about “essentially automatically guilty” displays such a sweeping ignorance of the criminal justice system (even in wacky FLA) that it should be grounds for revoking your posting privileges on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance. You might as well start a thread about Pepsi pulling God out of the pledge, a missing little kid needing a kidney, or a real life brush with angels. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212.md?page=3)