# South African Rape Survey **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212 "2009-06-18T19:34:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/41 "2009-06-19T17:34:41Z")
The only thing I want to point out is there is a big difference in the stats from America and S. Africa in whom they’re asking. The States is asking women if they have been raped; S. Africa is asking men if they’ve raped. We have eradicated a lot (though not all) of the stigma of being raped. It seems S. Africa has eradicated a lot (though not all) of the stigma of raping. I am extremely dubious about claims in the States, like Alex. I have heard so many things about the percentages of false claims. But all that aside, I would like to have a survey in the States wherein men are asked if they have raped and see what the percentage comes back as. I would hope at least it carries more of a stigma here. Regardless, the fact that men don’t seem to have a problem admitting it in S. Africa is really really frightening. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/42 "2009-06-19T17:37:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m somewhat curious at the surprise being expressed here (though obviously this is horrifying to contemplate). > > [1 in 6](http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims) American women over the age of 12 report having been the victim of a rape or attempted rape. The figure is something like 1 in 4 for women between 18 and 24. > > On preview, I see that **Tom Tildrum** has already addressed this. Previous threads I’ve seen on reports like that, most of the time the survey had very -curious- definitions of rape. If you talked a girl into having sex with you when she didn’t really want to, it would be considered rape, for instance. If she was drunk and had sex while inebriated, it would be rape (since a person needs to have their faculties about them to give proper consent), etc. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/43 "2009-06-19T18:03:15Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If you talked a girl into having sex with you when she didn’t really want to, it would be considered rape, for instance. Or changed her mind after the fact? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/44 "2009-06-19T18:27:02Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Maybe this is a dumb question but, then again, this seems so incredible to me… > > I wonder if the term “rape” was even used. I wonder if there was a phrase like, “Used force to have sex with a woman”. I mean, would that many men answer yes to the question, “Are you a rapist”? But maybe more would find it acceptable to sany, “Yes, I’ve forced a woman to have sex”. I’m curious about that, too. Is rape commonly defined as such in South Africa? If having sex with a woman or man (or girl or boy) against their will isn’t that stigmatizing, is the word ‘rape’ used more casually, or are these actions not even considered rape? (In the US it’s not uncommon for the media and authorities to define non-stranger rape as [a lesser offense](http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090529/A_NEWS/905290324) and for victims to not recognize what happened to them as rape until years later – I imagine this is possible for the perpetrators, too, assuming they’ve changed as people). The 1 in 4 stat always seemed too broad to me, despite strong evidence of underreporting, but then I’m also shocked to learn how many women I know have been assaulted (and didn’t press charges) once we start discussing the topic. I don’t agree that being a rape victim has been de-stigmatized in the US, though some progress has been made on a broader scale (versus a personal one – a rape victim may see her plight played out sympathetically on Law & Order but receive no support from family and friends). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/45 "2009-06-19T18:50:28Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > I call bullshit, or in local parlance, cite? Not Florida, but read this: [http://people.brandeis.edu/~ssis/assault/consent.html](http://people.brandeis.edu/~ssis/assault/consent.html) It’s not as though people are regularly convicted on this basis, of course, but it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/46 "2009-06-19T19:09:14Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > is the word ‘rape’ used more casually On the NPR report of the story, they specifically noted they didn’t use the word ‘rape’ in the survey. Instead they used the word ‘coerced’. Does nagging until you get some count as coercion? Seems that it might have more range of interpretation than ‘rape’. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/47 "2009-06-19T19:15:27Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Previous threads I’ve seen on reports like that, most of the time the survey had very -curious- definitions of rape. If you talked a girl into having sex with you when she didn’t really want to, it would be considered rape, for instance. If she was drunk and had sex while inebriated, it would be rape (since a person needs to have their faculties about them to give proper consent), etc. I was curious about that, too, so I looked up the study cited in **RNATB** ’s link. The survey was conducted in 1998. You can download the full text as a PDF or text file here: [Archived | Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey, Research in Brief | National Institute of Justice](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/172837.htm) The definition of rape used and the questions asked are on page 13. > [@](#): > > Rape was defined as an event that occurred without the victim’s consent, that involved the use or threat of force to penetrate the victim’s vagina or anus by penis, tongue, fingers, or object, or the victim’s mouth by penis. The definition included both attempted and completed rape.The following questions were used to screen respondents for rape victimization: > > • [Female respondents only] Has a man or boy ever made you have sex by using force or threatening to harm you or someone close to you? Just so there is no mistake, by sex we mean putting a penis in your vagina. > > • Has anyone, male or female, ever made you have oral sex by using force or threat of force? Just so there is no mistake, by oral sex we mean that a man or boy put his penis in your mouth or someone, male or female, penetrated your vagina or anus with their mouth. > > • Has anyone ever made you have anal sex by using force or threat of harm? Just so there is no mistake, by anal sex we mean that a man or boy put his penis in your anus. > > • Has anyone, male or female, ever put fingers or objects in your vagina or anus against your will or by using force or threats? > > • Has anyone, male or female, ever attempted to make you have vaginal, oral, or anal sex against your will, but intercourse or penetration did not occur? So in this case, the survey is using a pretty standard definition of rape, and still got the famous “1 in 6” number. (17.6% of women had been sexually assaulted – 14.8% had been raped and 2.8% had experienced an attempted rape) ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/48 "2009-06-19T20:05:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not Florida, but read this: [http://people.brandeis.edu/~ssis/assault/consent.html](http://people.brandeis.edu/~ssis/assault/consent.html) > > It’s not as though people are regularly convicted on this basis, of course, but it happens. That is a Brandeis student handbook that misstates Massachusetts state law\*, and discusses intoxication and consent in terms of the student handbook and “morality.” I challenge you to find a single citation to support your statement that it has happened (in the US) that someone was convicted of rape for having sex as set forth in the following fact pattern: two people have sex, both are under the influence, either party reports the encounter, the other party is essentially automatically [found] guilty. - Under Mass law, to show incapability of consent by reason of intoxication, the prosecution must show not simply that the accuser lacked sobriety or was intoxicated, but that as a result of the alcohol and drugs consumed by the accuser, the accuser’s physical or mental condition was so impaired that the accuser could not consent.[Cite](http://http://www.uslaw.com/library/Massachusetts/Rape_Intoxication_Consent.php?item=46814). Accordingly, the statement in the Brandeis student manual that “according to Massachusetts state law, people under the influence of alcohol or drugs are absolutely incapable of giving sexual consent” is absolutely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/49 "2009-06-19T22:11:12Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Previous threads I’ve seen on reports like that, most of the time the survey had very -curious- definitions of rape. If you talked a girl into having sex with you when she didn’t really want to, it would be considered rape, for instance. If she was drunk and had sex while inebriated, it would be rape (since a person needs to have their faculties about them to give proper consent), etc. What would YOU call “talking a girl into having sex when she didn’t really want to” then? How would you talk her into it? Either she is willing to engage in sex, or she isn’t. If she isn’t, then I call it rape. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/50 "2009-06-19T22:36:27Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > What would YOU call “talking a girl into having sex when she didn’t really want to” then? How would you talk her into it? Either she is willing to engage in sex, or she isn’t. If she isn’t, then I call it rape. I dunno, talking you into giving me twenty bucks when you don’t really want to doesn’t seem quite the same thing as grabbing you and taking your wallet or holding a knife on you and demanding you hand it over. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/51 "2009-06-19T22:49:18Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > What would YOU call “talking a girl into having sex when she didn’t really want to” then? How would you talk her into it? Either she is willing to engage in sex, or she isn’t. If she isn’t, then I call it rape. You can consent to do something you don’t really want to. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/52 "2009-06-19T22:49:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I dunno, talking you into giving me twenty bucks when you don’t really want to doesn’t seem quite the same thing as grabbing you and taking your wallet or holding a knife on you and demanding you hand it over. But it both cases it makes you a shitty human being - just depends on what level of shit you want to stoop to. Are you a garden variety thief or a con man? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/53 "2009-06-19T22:52:58Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > You can consent to do something you don’t really want to. That’s nice for a legal definition of rape. But rape has connotations beyond just the legal definition. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/54 "2009-06-20T03:31:18Z")
(by **CP** : ) \*"With fabulous excuses like this… “And it’s partly rooted in our incredibly disturbed past and the way that South African men over the centuries have been socialised into forms of masculinity that are predicated on the idea of being strong and tough and the use of force to assert dominance and control over women, as well as other men.” …it’s highly unlikely to change anytime soon. “My mother and father got the short end of the race stick, so I think I’ll go rape someone now.” A$$holes."\* > [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Coming from a racist scumbag like you, that’s really saying something. I assume the reason you have labeled me a “racist scumbag” is that I hold the position that populations are differently enabled by genetics as well as environmental influences. That has no bearing on an effort to excuse or explain current behaviour–from an individual of any background–on their history. I have no sympathy with such excuses. [QUOTE=tomndebb] You do realize that this was part of a statement from a woman researcher decrying the social conditions that gave rise to the situation, not a feeble attempt by some guy to excuse his behavior, right? [/QUOTE] Yes. It is, nevertheless, an excuse. And you and I probably disagree on how much various “institutional” elements are reasonable explanations for the way things are. For me, this is an unacceptable excuse, offered to ameliorate responsibility and culpability of rapists. And were it offerred by a rapist himself, it would be even more lame, which is why I wrote that comment that way. It’s pretty lame to excuse rape with some sort of bogus unsupported “I am the result of the society before me” bs. These rapists, of all groups, are ordinary criminal a$$holes. A slaveholder raping slaves does not have diminished culpability for rape–or for enslaving, for that matter–simply on the grounds that it was done by predecessors. And when that sort of excuse is extended to include some sort of broad general society bs, I am underwhelmed. I don’t give a flying rat’s patoot what color you are or what happened to your mommy and daddy. You don’t get to excuse raping women. I got it that a lot of “rape” in our Western world has some gray attached to it. I don’t think that’s what’s being referred to in this study. This seems like pretty old ordinary rape from what I read. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/55 "2009-06-20T05:23:37Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Yes. It is, nevertheless, an excuse. And you and I probably disagree on how much various “institutional” elements are reasonable explanations for the way things are. For me, this is an unacceptable excuse, offered to ameliorate responsibility and culpability of rapists. And were it offerred by a rapist himself, it would be even more lame, which is why I wrote that comment that way. It’s pretty lame to excuse rape with some sort of bogus unsupported “I am the result of the society before me” bs. These rapists, of all groups, are ordinary criminal a$$holes. A slaveholder raping slaves does not have diminished culpability for rape–or for enslaving, for that matter–simply on the grounds that it was done by predecessors. And when that sort of excuse is extended to include some sort of broad general society bs, I am underwhelmed. > > I don’t give a flying rat’s patoot what color you are or what happened to your mommy and daddy. You don’t get to excuse raping women. I got it that a lot of “rape” in our Western world has some gray attached to it. I don’t think that’s what’s being referred to in this study. This seems like pretty old ordinary rape from what I read. Since the author of the quoted text is actually a woman who explicitly said that steps needed to be taken to stop the behavior, it seems that you are simply saying that anyone who does not foam at the mouth and demand that the land be plowed under and salted to prevent any continuation of the situation is trying to “excuse” the situation. Since you have had to resort to inventing claims for the professor’s beliefs and words as well as inventing some unspecified position for me to hold, I take it that you do not actually want a solution, you just want to invent reasons to rant. _::: shrug :::_ ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/56 "2009-06-20T09:25:40Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I dunno, talking you into giving me twenty bucks when you don’t really want to doesn’t seem quite the same thing as grabbing you and taking your wallet or holding a knife on you and demanding you hand it over. I’ve been in situations where someone has tried to “talk” me into giving him money. In some of those situations, the guy (and it was always a guy, never a gal) implied, through body language and other means, that he was quite willing to quit being a nice guy and use violence if I didn’t accede to his demands. As it happens, I am also willing to use violence if I feel threatened, which these guys did not expect. I’ve also been in situations where a guy was “trying to talk” me into having sex, and again, the guy’s manner was threatening and intimidating. Now, if this isn’t what you have in mind, if you are thinking of a guy begging and pleading for a little lovin’ from his wife/GF/SO, then no, it probably doesn’t have an intimidation factor. But in my experience, a guy trying to talk me into having sex is a guy who wouldn’t hesitate to use physical force, if he thought that he could get away with it. We view these issues through our own experiences. I’ve had guys try to rape me. You probably haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/57 "2009-06-20T10:20:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Since the author of the quoted text is actually a woman who explicitly said that steps needed to be taken to stop the behavior, it seems that you are simply saying that anyone who does not foam at the mouth and demand that the land be plowed under and salted to prevent any continuation of the situation is trying to “excuse” the situation. > Since you have had to resort to inventing claims for the professor’s beliefs and words as well as inventing some unspecified position for me to hold, I take it that you do not actually want a solution, you just want to invent reasons to rant. _::: shrug :::_ Nonsense on both counts, and I’m disappointed. You are typically more thoughtful in your comments. That I disagree with a root-cause analysis is hardly indicative that I do not actually want a solution. As to whether or not mocking a foolish analysis qualifies as a “rant,” well–it is the Pit after all. Given the stupidity of the professor’s comment, I thought I was rather restrained. My opinion, of course. I haven’t invented any claims for the professor’s beliefs. I didn’t restate her opinion; I quoted it. I’ve dismissed as ridiculous an attempt to justify rape in a modern world under the notion that \*“…it’s partly rooted in our incredibly disturbed past and the way that South African men over the centuries have been socialised into forms of masculinity that are predicated on the idea of being strong and tough and the use of force to assert dominance and control over women, as well as other men.” \* While you may buy into that reasoning, and I do not, I fail to see how I have had to “resort to inventing claims for the professor’s beliefs.” I have labeled her explanation inadequate pap. I have not invented any position for her beyond what she has already taken. Excusing current malignant behaviour on past society is precisely what will not solve the problem. All that does is provide an ongoing excuse, and minimize culpability and responsibility for personal behaviour. As such, it promotes the problem. As to “inventing some unspecificed position” for you to hold, I apologize. I try to be clear and accurate in attributing positions for others. It’s my impression that your opinion of the professor’s comments is positive, and that in general, “institutional racism” is responsible for many current disparities. If I have misrepresented or misconstrued either of these positions, I am sorry. As to this comment of yours: _" …it seems that you are simply saying that anyone who does not foam at the mouth and demand that the land be plowed under and salted to prevent any continuation of the situation is trying to “excuse” the situation"_ I’ll let that pass as rhetoric. I find it not only ridiculously innacurate but unnecessarily inflammatory. Perhaps you feel that’s OK because this is the Pit? Frankly, it’s annoying to have you even pretend to jump to the conclusion that because I don’t buy into the Professor’s reasoning, I am left only with a false alternative. In any case, at my age I dribble a bit but I don’t think you’ll see me foaming at the mouth anytime soon in the SDMB. For me the SDMB is a pleasant distraction but hardly one worth getting my dander up for. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/58 "2009-06-20T11:37:59Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I have labeled her explanation inadequate pap. I have not invented any position for her beyond what she has already taken. **Excusing** current malignant behaviour on past society is precisely what will not solve the problem. All that does is provide an ongoing **excuse** , and minimize culpability and responsibility for personal behaviour. As such, it promotes the problem. [bolding mine] I had to look up the [definition of that word](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/excuse). Then I had to re-read the quoted text (tomndebb’s version). > [@](#): > > The absolute imperative is we have to change the underlying social attitudes that in a way have created a norm that coercing women into sex is on some level acceptable. > > "We know that we have a higher prevalence of rape in South Africa than there is in other countries. > > “And it’s partly rooted in our incredibly disturbed past and the way that South African men over the centuries have been socialised into forms of masculinity that are predicated on the idea of being strong and tough and the use of force to assert dominance and control over women, as well as other men.” Using this information I’ve concluded that your usage of “excuse” is incorrect as the woman quoted had never justified rape. Also your summery of her words as: > [@](#): > > “My mother and father got the short end of the race stick, so I think I’ll go rape someone now.” Is clearly self created. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/59 "2009-06-20T11:50:38Z")
I think for someone who holds ideas on race/Blacks that are commonly viewed as contemptuous, you should be a little more careful in your race baiting. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/60 "2009-06-20T11:55:34Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Nonsense on both counts, and I’m disappointed. You are typically more thoughtful in your comments. That I disagree with a root-cause analysis is hardly indicative that I do not actually want a solution. As to whether or not mocking a foolish analysis qualifies as a “rant,” well–it is the Pit after all. Given the stupidity of the professor’s comment, I thought I was rather restrained. My opinion, of course. > > I haven’t invented any claims for the professor’s beliefs. I didn’t restate her opinion; I quoted it. Actually, you truncated it so that it meant something different than what she said. Other than that, it would appear that you simply wish to see any explanation–even if stated as underlying causes that need to be corrected and changed–as an “excuse.” Of course, this is the Pit. Whatever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212.md?page=4)