# South African Rape Survey **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212 "2009-06-18T19:34:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/101 "2009-06-21T16:26:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s assholish behavior though, not even implied violent behavior. Certainly he deserves the blame for essentially extorting her into his apartment, but there’s no “implied threat of violence” there. It’s hard to say, though. We weren’t there. The behavior there could range from some kind of affection to strangling. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/102 "2009-06-21T16:32:07Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > And that’s the reason for my rant against the good professor. Well-intentioned pap providing \*\*explanations \*\*(and, in my opinion, incorrect ones) simply enable the status quo and distract from the solution: “This behaviour is wrong. This is not a product of your past and there is no acceptable ameliorating explanation for it, nor will we be \*\*excusing \*\*it in any way.” > > . . . I complained about promoting the notion that the “incredibly disturbed past…etc etc” somehow \*\*ameliorates \*\*current behaviour or norms. There’s a world of difference between an explanation and an “excuse.” Responsibility and blameworthiness are not zero-sum: that there are other factors behind an epidemic of rape in South Africa besides the willingness of the perpetrators to rape doesn’t make the rapists less culpable, and I doubt you’ll find anyone who says otherwise. The willingness to rape is the proximate cause of rape, but it doesn’t create itself out of thin air. And what would you prefer the professor’s explanation to be? That 1 in 4 South African men are rapists because there are a lot of evil dudes in South Africa? While that analysis is viscerally satisfying to many people, it’s a complete dead-end. You can’t do anything with it other than scold. OTOH, if you can have a bit of success identifying some of the ultimate causes of rape, you can try to address the problem by addressing the larger issues, while \*also \*scolding (and punishing) as needed. It’s not either/or. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/103 "2009-06-21T16:59:32Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > It’s hard to say, though. We weren’t there. The behavior there could range from some kind of affection to strangling. True ( although I wouldn’t call strangling “implied violence”; it’s the real thing ). But the point I’m making is that an “implied threat of violence” is exactly the sort of thing that someone can see when it’s not there. Especially when you are inclined to look at men in general with fear, as many women seem to be; that’s a mindset predisposed to see threats that aren’t there. And the men in question can hardly correct the woman’s misinterpretation if she never mentions it. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/104 "2009-06-22T00:32:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Absolutely wrong. The typical reaction to being caught drunk driving, outside a specific case of fatal accidents, was that nearly everyone did it and it was just an unfortunate incident. Even in the case of fatalities, the common expression was that the perp should not have his life “ruined” with a court judgment on top of carrying the guilt of the deaths. Sure, there was more call for personal responsibility: it came in the way of social attitudes toward drunk driving changing so that cops stopped sending drunks home with a caution to be careful if they lived close enough to where they were stopped, judges stopped letting drunk drivers off with warnings and probations when they actually were arrested, and people began to go out of their way to condemn drunk driving, in general. > > The changes regarding the attitudes toward personal responsibility were changes to the societal views. “Society always recognized that drunk driving was wrong?” Not hardly. That is a new attitude that was propagated across society between 1975 and 1990. There was a recognition prior to that that accidents caused problems and alcohol was included in traffic laws as a sort of _well, we ought to adderess this_ situation, but there was no general belief permeating society that drunk driving should be considered a criminal act. That is the attitude that had to change so that cops and judges would do their jobs and so that citizens would take acticve steps to avoid driving drunk or permitting their friends to drive drunk. Ultimately it is a personal responsibility, of course, but without the weight of societal opinion to get people to consider their actions, the factors that lead to specific choices differ. Even your “changed the laws” action that you think magically brought about a recognition of personal responsibility came about only after there was a change in the attitudes of society to pressure legislatures to make those changes in laws. I did not come to the US until my mid-teens, so perhaps your analysis is accurate. I never remember an attitude that drunk driving was OK, or shouldn’t be criminalized; only that it wasn’t prosecuted very aggressively. And I certainly don’t remember anyone promulgating the notion that society had just sort of always done it that way or that the problem was somehow rooted in our past heritage. While attitudes toward how aggressively to criminalize might have changed, I never remember anyone advancing the notion that the past was any sort of contributor to, or explanation for–or excuse for–current bad behaviour. There just seemed to be a gradual shift toward assigning personal responsibility with no excuses…and that’s what I’d lobby for here as well. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/105 "2009-06-22T01:00:49Z")
I think you are reading too much into the professor’s reference to the past. Her active statement was that they need to change attitudes, now. Reference to the past–which was subordinate to her declaration of need–is simply a way to put the need in context. Had she said something along the lines of having a need to “understand” each rapist and trying to persuade each of them to throw off the shackles of history, I think you’d have a point. However, to get society at large to buy into the need to make changes in social attitudes, I think she chose to put it into an historical context. ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/106 "2009-06-22T15:23:29Z")
I’ve always seen the reactionary obsession with, as Shodan calls it, “a notarized release on file in the DA’s office” :rolleyes:, as completely divorced from reality. Anyone who’s ever had communicative, mature sex can attest to the fact that it is _not difficult_ to periodically make sure that what you’re doing is okay with your partner. This doesn’t mean that you have to have them fill out a progress report; it means taking a few extra seconds to be an observing and caring person. Outliers like the Antioch College sex policy are an extreme minority but, of course, are the strawmen always trotted out. Sorry to keep this conversation off topic. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/107 "2009-06-22T16:55:58Z")
> [@Lama\_Pacos](#): > > I’ve always seen the reactionary obsession with, as Shodan calls it, “a notarized release on file in the DA’s office” :rolleyes:, as completely divorced from reality. Anyone who’s ever had communicative, mature sex can attest to the fact that it is _not difficult_ to periodically make sure that what you’re doing is okay with your partner. This doesn’t mean that you have to have them fill out a progress report; it means taking a few extra seconds to be an observing and caring person. Outliers like the Antioch College sex policy are an extreme minority but, of course, are the strawmen always trotted out. > > Sorry to keep this conversation off topic. Rape, the law, male sense of “sexual entitlement.” No, I’d say you stayed right on topic. IMO rape primarily comes down to power and entitlement. In general, if men feel that they entitled to a woman’s body they will use any degree/form of power (including violence/threats of violence) to get it. It just becomes another method of “enforcing your will onto others;” not unlike other (more socially legitimate) forms of persuasion. The sex, gender and age of the participants (rapist/rapee?) need not even play a direct role, just a power imbalance among them (then strong will eat weak). This is also societal problem; in violent societies violence is a legitimate form of persuasion. This occurs in places which have historically ignored/nurtured huge power imbalances between the sexes. Now what South Africa needs to do is get tough and fight this on all social fronts from legislatively, to mass public campaigning. All fronts! This stupid individualism crap is a red herring and a distraction. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/108 "2009-06-23T20:02:09Z")
Not in the same league of outrage, perhaps, but thought I’d hijack this thread briefly to note that, due to a shortage of funds, Los Angeles will cease testing DNA evidence linked to thousands of sexual assaults (story [here](http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/06/23/No-funds-sheriff-halts-rape-DNA-tests/UPI-49381245733940/)). This after their backlog of over 4,500 untested rape kits was brought to the country’s attention last year. America still has a long, long way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/109 "2009-06-23T20:08:32Z")
Okay, that’s pretty fucked up too. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212/110 "2009-06-24T20:44:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m somewhat curious at the surprise being expressed here (though obviously this is horrifying to contemplate). > > [1 in 6](http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims) American women over the age of 12 report having been the victim of a rape or attempted rape. The figure is something like 1 in 4 for women between 18 and 24. > > On preview, I see that **Tom Tildrum** has already addressed this. I’m skeptical about this. I once dated a certain woman and I woke up during the night to her crying. You see…I had RAPED HER! Huh? Turns out I touched her when I rolled over in my sleep. No penetration…no nothing. But I had RAPED HER! I put her in the ‘batshit insane’ category at that point and broke up with her…using the excuse that I don’t want to accidentally rape her again and it would be much safer for her for us not to be together. She took this hard…but I hear some women can fall for their rapists. :rolleyes: ======= So..define ‘rape’. Rape, to me means forced intercourse. However, if you were to ask batshit insane woman if she’d been raped…she would have said ‘yes’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-african-rape-survey/500212.md?page=5)