# South Carolina priest: No communion for Obama supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632 "2008-11-14T00:27:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/221 "2008-11-19T21:32:50Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > So you concede that a Bishop’s staff said to themselves, “I know this priest is gonna keep abusing kids, but frankly I couldn’t care less.”? Pretty much, yes. They placed their cares about quieting the scandal and keeping the boss in plausible denial mode over their concern for kids. > [@](#): > > Great. Nice bunch you are defending. I’m only “defending” keeping the record straight about what was and wasn’t done. I think they’re a bunch of shitheels. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/222 "2008-11-20T01:38:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That the pope has never made an _ex cathedra_ declaration on either topic has been addressed. > > As to the difference: abortion is regarded as the taking of an innocent life and … > Capital punishment is regarded as the taking of the life of a convicted criminal … Yes, I do understand that. The exact theological nitpicking I am interested in is, is there a specific difference, in canon law or doctrine or … whatever, in _ **the Catholic church’s position** _ on abortion v. capital punishment. For example, has a Pope issued a Bull saying abortion was wrong, but only preached that capital punishment is? (Because I know I heard someone claim there was a difference; if I was lied to, I want to know.) (I thought to church opposes the death penalty because it prevents repentance and penance, but we have already established that I am not an authority.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/223 "2008-11-20T12:31:12Z")
The church has opposed abortion throughout its history. The earliest occasion was in the _Didache_ (Teaching) of the Apostles from the first or early second century. Many early fathers of the church condemned it and it has been officially condemned by several councils, the Council of Eliberis in the fourth century, The Sixth Ecumenical Council of 680, the first Council of Mainz in 847, among others, and has been condemned by any number of papal declarations. Official opposition to capital punishment occurred much more recently. There have been statements from various national conferences over the last 40 years. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops voted to oppose the death penalty at their 1974 meeting (at which time the death penalty had been suspended in the U.S. for seven years). Then, in 1980, they issued a formal letter opposing the death penalty, following the resumption of the death penalty in the United States. Partially prompted by that and similar actions of other national conferences, a consistory of cardinals, in 1991, called upon Pope John Paul II to issue a document addressing all matters of the sacredness of life. In 1995, the pope issued the encyclical _Evangelium vitae_, in which, among a number of isues addressed, he set forth a principle that the death penalty should only be reluctantly applied to defend society when no other method is available. There has never been a council that officially condemned the death penalty and _Evangelium vitae_ strongly argues against it rather than prohibiting it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/224 "2008-11-20T12:56:14Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The church has opposed abortion throughout its history. This is a misleading statement, because the church’s postion on abortion has [not been uniform throughout history](http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm). > [@](#): > > **Circa 380 CE** : The \*Apostolic Constitutions \*allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape and contained a soul. > > **St. Augustine (354-430 CE)** accepted the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of “delayed ensoulment”. He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. 3 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated). > > **Pope Innocent III (1161-1216):** He determined that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not “animated” at the time. > > Early in the 13th century, he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of “quickening” - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. Before that time, abortion was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human person, not an actual human person. > > **Pope Sixtus V (1588)** issued a Papal bull “Effraenatam” which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty. > > **Pope Gregory XIV (1591)** revoked the previous Papal bull and reinstated the “quickening” test, which he determined happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/225 "2008-11-20T13:48:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > This is a misleading statement, because the church’s postion on abortion has [not been uniform throughout history](http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist_c.htm). It was incomplete, perhaps, but not misleading. It would only have been misleading if I had attempted to claim that the church has always proclaimed that life begins at the moment of conception. Since the question had to do with the comparative histories of opposition to abortion vs opposition to capital punishment, simply noting when the opposition was voiced was legitimate. The church has always opposed abortion. The point at which it considered life to have begun has changed from time to time. **Didache 2:2** : > [@](#): > > You shall do no murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not corrupt boys, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not deal in magic, you shall do no sorcery, **you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill them when born** , you shall not covet your neighbor’s goods, you shall not perjure yourself, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall not cherish a grudge, you shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued; The separate prohibition against infanticide makes clear that aborting a preganacy, (at some point), has always been prohibited, which I believe answers **j666** ’s question. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/226 "2008-11-20T14:14:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The church has always opposed abortion. But it has not always been inherently evil. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/227 "2008-11-20T14:34:26Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > But it has not always been inherently evil. Right. Abortion was opposed as simply something that the church found moderately displeasing. As soon as the act was seen as taking a human life, it was murder. That is inherently evil. It is true that there have been several different interpretations of when life started, but as soon as human life is recognized, the church says that abortion is evil. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/228 "2008-11-21T01:20:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > **Didache 2:2** : The separate prohibition against infanticide makes clear that aborting a preganacy, (at some point), has always been prohibited, which I believe answers **j666** ’s question. Actually, I think **fear** has answered my question; there was a (re-instated) _ **Papal Bull** _ on abortion, and an _ **encyclic** _ on capital punishment. If I remember correctly, a Bull trumps an encyclic, so this may be what I may heard, and misremembered. > [@tomndebb](#): > > The church has always opposed abortion. The point at which it considered life to have begun has changed from time to time. Not to be rude, but … _duh!_ That is the essential argument about terminating pregnancies; **when** is it ending a life. Quickening is a good practical dividing line. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/229 "2008-11-21T04:13:43Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Actually, I think **fear** has answered my question; there was a (re-instated) _ **Papal Bull** _ on abortion, and an _ **encyclic** _ on capital punishment. If I remember correctly, a Bull trumps an encyclic, so this may be what I may heard, and misremembered. The only differences between a bull and an encyclical is the technical form of the letter including the manner of the address and closing along with some nod to the particular audience for whom it is intended and a few other forms of protocol. They are of equal weight in presenting the the views of the pope. So, no, a bull does not trump an encyclical and beginning in the nineteenth century, encyclicals have become the more common method of expounding upon issues. > [@j666](#): > > Not to be rude, but … _duh!_ That is the essential argument about terminating pregnancies; **when** is it ending a life. Quickening is a good practical dividing line. Well, since I was taken to task for not being overly literal and detailed when I provided you with the Cliff Notes version of the various church pronouncements on abortion and capital punishment, I figured that I ought to make clear that point as well. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/230 "2008-11-22T18:19:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The only differences between a bull and an encyclical is the technical form of the letter including the manner of the address and closing along with some nod to the particular audience for whom it is intended and a few other forms of protocol. They are of equal weight in presenting the the views of the pope. So, no, a bull does not trump an encyclical and beginning in the nineteenth century, encyclicals have become the more common method of expounding upon issues. > Well, since I was taken to task for not being overly literal and detailed when I provided you with the Cliff Notes version of the various church pronouncements on abortion and capital punishment, I figured that I ought to make clear that point as well. So, if I understand you correctly, there is not a technical difference in the how Catholic church’s positions on the two issues akin to the difference between an Executive Order and a Supreme Court decision in the U.S? The church has not spoken out against abortion in an entirely different and more … forceful means? Sigh. I am never going to figure out what I heard or misheard on the radio that day. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/231 "2008-11-23T01:00:16Z")
> [@j666](#): > > So, if I understand you correctly, there is not a technical difference in the how Catholic church’s positions on the two issues akin to the difference between an Executive Order and a Supreme Court decision in the U.S? > > The church has not spoken out against abortion in an entirely different and more … forceful means? I’m not sure what you are asking. I already noted that the church has issued condemnations of abortion, (at whatever point in development someone decides that a human life has been terminated), from more than one council of the church. Edicts from councils are pretty much the heaviest hitting documents that the church has. (Since 1869, the church has held that the pope can, in certain circumstances, issue a statement with as much force as a council, but we’ve only had two declarations _ex cathedra_ and neither mentioned abortion.) I also noted, for completeness, that there have been papal declarations regarding abortion, but those statements merely emphasized the declarations of the councils. I had thought that by listing the various types of church declarations regarding abortion and capital punishment–particularly the council declarations regarding abortion–I had, indeed, made it clear that the church has given much greater weight (so far) to the abortion issue. I apologize if that did not come across clearly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632.md?page=11)