# South Carolina priest: No communion for Obama supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2008, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632 "2008-11-14T00:27:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/121 "2008-11-15T02:03:39Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Where do I say that good reasoning cannot redeem a sinful act? [/QUOTE] Now you’re the one “palming cards”; I only said I thought your post suggested it, not said, and that it suggested that good reasoning cannot redeem a sinful act “in some cases”. Though I tend to think it was a misstatement on your part rather than purposeful. As to where I think your post\* suggested\* it, it was in that your example of the first Obama supporter who does appear to have good reasoning behind their choice, yet it is your opinion that they have comitted a sinful act, and a grave one at that. If I am incorrect and there is good reasoning that would redeem the sinful act of voting for legalized abortion (by proxy of a President), then i’m perfectly willing to stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/122 "2008-11-15T02:06:27Z")
> [@quixotic78](#): > > Hold on, let’s not be hasty. Perhaps he made a similar proclamation when Dubya was elected, saying how no one could accept Communion until they repented for voting for a death penalty advocate. > > [sub]But somehow I doubt it…[/sub] There wasn’t a viable anti-death penalty candidate running against Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/123 "2008-11-15T02:16:04Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Now you’re the one “palming cards”; I only said I thought your post suggested it, not said, and that it suggested that good reasoning cannot redeem a sinful act “in some cases”. Though I tend to think it was a misstatement on your part rather than purposeful. OK, fair enough – I guess I DID suggest it. > [@](#): > > As to where I think your post\* suggested\* it, it was in that your example of the first Obama supporter who does appear to have good reasoning behind their choice, yet it is your opinion that they have comitted a sinful act, and a grave one at that. If I am incorrect and there is good reasoning that would redeem the sinful act of voting for legalized abortion (by proxy of a President), then i’m perfectly willing to stand corrected. Sure there is. We’ve even heard some of it on this board. A person might say: “The reality is that even with a pro-life President – Reagan, Bush 41, and Bush 43 prove the case – abortion will continue. Since no President will end abortion, I will select Obama, even though he’s pro-choice, because I believe his social policies will lead to less _need_ for abortion and fewer overall abortions.” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/124 "2008-11-15T02:21:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure there is. We’ve even heard some of it on this board. A person might say: “The reality is that even with a pro-life President – Reagan, Bush 41, and Bush 43 prove the case – abortion will continue. Since no President will end abortion, I will select Obama, even though he’s pro-choice, because I believe his social policies will lead to less _need_ for abortion and fewer overall abortions.” Well, fair enough then. Sorry to have bothered you with my misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Socks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a8b319/32.png) [@Captain\_Socks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Socks)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/125 "2008-11-15T06:22:45Z")
> [@](#): > > “I don’t understand anyone who would call themselves a Christian, let alone a Catholic, and could vote for someone who’s a pro-abortion candidate,” said Ted Kelly, 64, who volunteers his time as lector for the church. “You’re talking about the murder of innocent **beings**.” bolding mine. Wait a minute. You are against abortion, but you can’t bring yourself to call the unborn “people”. Hmm. Somebody’s a half-assed pro-lifer. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/126 "2008-11-15T06:34:31Z")
I’m assuming I can still receive Communion despite my Obama vote if I visit Father Pfleger, right? ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/127 "2008-11-15T11:04:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I hope he catches herpes from an altar boy. For this…you are a piece of shit. Bad enough that boys are victimized by evil “priests”, but your sophmoric attempt at…humor…is truly monstrous. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/128 "2008-11-15T11:28:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure there is. We’ve even heard some of it on this board. A person might say: “The reality is that even with a pro-life President – Reagan, Bush 41, and Bush 43 prove the case – abortion will continue. Since no President will end abortion, I will select Obama, even though he’s pro-choice, because I believe his social policies will lead to less _need_ for abortion and fewer overall abortions.” Thank you for putting what I said earlier more succinctly. From what I’ve read, making abortion won’t significantly reduce the number of abortions performed, but may increase the number of women who are killed by illegal abortions and, in general increase human suffering and misery. On the other hand, finding a way to ensure that free pre-natal healthcare is available to all women, even if it is provided by the much-maligned Planned Parenthood, and arranging for women to have paid maternity leave might do something to reduce the number of abortions performed in this country. I think we should also work to make adoption a more viable alternative, of course, but we’re going to need to work on society’s attitude for that one. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/129 "2008-11-15T11:47:41Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > For this…you are a piece of shit. Bad enough that boys are victimized by evil “priests”, but your sophmoric attempt at…humor…is truly monstrous. You have a really low bar for monstrous. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/130 "2008-11-15T12:10:49Z")
WON"T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?! I mean, besides the priests. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/131 "2008-11-15T15:18:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I disagree. But okay, here’s a different example, something worse than the death of a human being: > > Catholics can believe everyone should have the right to completely reject God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church, the saints, the Bible and the whole shebang, the right to fall willingly, nay eagerly, into the sins of despair–the wholesale rejection of salvation–heresy, apostasy, and the wholesale hatred of God. Catholics can vote to preserve these rights without themselves being guilty of heresy, despair, apostasy, and God-hating. Freedom of religion is based on these rights, yet the Church doesn’t condemn everyone who votes in support of the First Amendment. The RCC, my church, is not consistent in this regard, but I believe the difference would be that exercising free speech to your own detriment is one thing, a personal choice, whereas abortion is not, in that it affects the right of another person, an innocent one. I believe this should be the RCC’s position on SSM, for example. We can believe to our hearts content that it’s sinful, but why would we install as law something that prevents people from making a choice that affects no other innocent person against the person’s wishes? Preach, encourage, do whatever you like–but personal decisions, that which materially affect only ourselves (or other willing adults) are purely religious concerns (to the extent the RCC might have an interest in them). In other words, they are outside the boundaries of religious issues that might legitimately overlap with law. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/132 "2008-11-15T15:57:29Z")
> [@ManiacMan](#): > > For this…you are a piece of shit. Bad enough that boys are victimized by evil “priests”, but your sophmoric attempt at…humor…is truly monstrous. Get some perspective. This is a monstrous piece of shit **and** an Archbishop in the Catholic Church: > [@](#): > > Retired Archbishop Rembert Weakland admitted in a video deposition released Wednesday that he transferred priests with a history of sexual misconduct back into churches without alerting parishioners. > > The former archbishop acknowledged that he did so because “no parish would have accepted a priest unless you could say that he has gone through the kind of psychological examination and that he’s not a risk to the parish.” [http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/34335169.html](http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/34335169.html) **Fear Itself** told a tasteless and lame joke in anger over such behavior. See the difference? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/133 "2008-11-15T16:22:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wonder why you never hear these guys complaining about politicians who are pro-capital punishment. The Catholic Church is just as opposed to the death penalty as it is to abortion, but you never hear about them trying to refuse communion to those who support it. Actually, I believe the Church has never invoke the doctrine of papal infallibility on the death penalty, and it has for abortion. (No, I don’t have cite, and I’m not going to look for one, because I’m really not certain what that means for Penance anyhow) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/134 "2008-11-15T16:58:32Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > The RCC, my church, is not consistent in this regard, but I believe the difference would be that exercising free speech to your own detriment is one thing, a personal choice, whereas abortion is not, in that it affects the right of another person, an innocent one. I’m not talking about exercising free speech to _my_ detriment. I’m talking about exercising free speech to the detriment of others (what the church would consider “detriment,” anyway). Having the right to sell my God-hating, despairing, heretical wares to all comers. To teach, to lecture, to lure, to harangue, leading the faithful astray, and corrupting their souls. This used to be a big deal for the church. People were put on trial for it, burned, tortured, otherwise killed. Physical bodies don’t rank up there with souls. And yet I have a right to do that in the United States, and the church doesn’t say boo about it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/135 "2008-11-15T17:24:48Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m not talking about exercising free speech to _my_ detriment. I’m talking about exercising free speech to the detriment of others (what the church would consider “detriment,” anyway). Having the right to sell my God-hating, despairing, heretical wares to all comers. To teach, to lecture, to lure, to harangue, leading the faithful astray, and corrupting their souls. This used to be a big deal for the church. People were put on trial for it, burned, tortured, otherwise killed. Physical bodies don’t rank up there with souls. > > And yet I have a right to do that in the United States, and the church doesn’t say boo about it. You can sell whatever you want, doesn’t force anyone to buy. An abortion is quite another matter–the act itself _necessarily_ creates an evil outcome that affects another person. And I’ve already acknowledged that my church has been less than consistent in their policy on such matters. Leave it to you to nitpick about a little thing like torturing a few heretics. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/136 "2008-11-15T17:36:41Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Actually, I believe the Church has never invoke the doctrine of papal infallibility on the death penalty, and it has for abortion. > > (No, I don’t have cite, and I’m not going to look for one, because I’m really not certain what that means for Penance anyhow) Good idea not looking for one, because you’d waste your time. The doctrine of papal infallibility only applies when he speaks _ex cathedra_ on a matter of faith or morals. There are precisely two confirmed\* practices of this: pronouncing Mary to have been conceived immaculately, and pronouncing her to have been taken up into heaven bodily. Of the others theorized to fall under this category by theologians, none of which has been confirmed, _none_ of them has anything to do with abortion, and all of them are purely theological, hierarchical, or doctrinal concerns. \*as in, the Vatican says the Pope indeed fulfilled the five criteria for speaking infallibly. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/137 "2008-11-15T17:38:40Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > You can sell whatever you want, doesn’t force anyone to buy. Well, exactly. Just as I can support a law keeping abortion legal, but that doesn’t force anyone to have an abortion. That’s the point. The church punishes those who vote for abortion to be legal even if those people don’t want to have an abortion. In the abortion arena, pro-choice people are held guilty for _what other people do_. And I would like to add, if we are just as guilty for _allowing_ bad things to happen, God has a lot of ‘splainin’ to do. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/138 "2008-11-17T00:45:54Z")
To me what’s onerous about this is not its internal logic. Religious leaders decide what is sinful, and there is a plausible argument that they genuinely believe it is sinful to support a pro-choice politician. I get that. If you believe abortion is a contemporary holocaust, it stands to reason that people who knowingly enable that holocaust are bad people. So there’s no part of the internal logic that makes this more problematic than the belief itself (that abortion is a great evil). What is troubling is the extreme under-inclusiveness. Obama is no worse in this regard than the rest of the vast majority of federal politicians who are pro-choice. Not to mention the myriad other sinful things politicians support or engage in. I suppose one could argue that abortion is worse than everything else, and that Obama has more power than anyone else–so support for him is uniquely wrong. But the President has relatively little power over abortion laws. State governors and legislators probably have more affect on the issue than the President. And why is abortion worse than stem cell research, in Catholic dogma? Or torture causing death? Or euthanasia? The focus on Obama suggests to me that this isn’t about abortion. It is about Obama. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/139 "2008-11-17T01:59:57Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Well, exactly. Just as I can support a law keeping abortion legal, but that doesn’t force anyone to have an abortion. That’s the point. The church punishes those who vote for abortion to be legal even if those people don’t want to have an abortion. In the abortion arena, pro-choice people are held guilty for _what other people do_. This is incorrect. One needs to actively promote abortion before “the church,” (usually a bishop dealing with a public figure), will “punish” anyone. For example, no legislator has been sanctioned by his or her own bishop for voting for expropriation bills that happened to include abortion funding and no executive has been sanctioned for failing to veto them. There have been a couple of occasions when a bishop in a totally different diocese has muttered about denying such persons communion, but I am unaware of any bishop who has done it to one of his own. (The Szoka/Mansour affair comes close, although there were also extenuating circumstances in that case.) There have been a couple of cases in which members of different groups have been sanctioned for actively promoting abortion, usually when they demand changes in church law rather than civil law, but simply voting does not incur actual punishment from the church. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632/140 "2008-11-17T10:50:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > What is troubling is the extreme under-inclusiveness. Obama is no worse in this regard than the rest of the vast majority of federal politicians who are pro-choice. Not to mention the myriad other sinful things politicians support or engage in. I suppose one could argue that abortion is worse than everything else, and that Obama has more power than anyone else–so support for him is uniquely wrong. But the President has relatively little power over abortion laws. State governors and legislators probably have more affect on the issue than the President. And why is abortion worse than stem cell research, in Catholic dogma? Or torture causing death? Or euthanasia? > > The focus on Obama suggests to me that this isn’t about abortion. It is about Obama. POTUS appoints Supreme Court Justices. His influence in this arena is _enormous_. Additionally, Obama has stated the first thing he’d do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act, a chilling eventuality for pro-lifers. He has a 100% rating from Planned Parenthood. I’m not trying to convert you here, just commenting that if you’re pro-life, Obama is not your guy on this issue, and his influence will be significant. FWIW, I’ve been taught as a Catholic that euthanasia is also evil, as is stem cell research. “Torture causing death” I don’t recall specifically, but I’ll bet we think it’s bad. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-carolina-priest-no-communion-for-obama-supporters/472632.md?page=8)