# South Dakota Governor Vetos School / Locker Room Gender Bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2016, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727 "2016-03-02T10:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/21 "2016-03-02T16:48:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Maybe some background on why the bill was proposed, and a link to the text of the bill? Not sure how any of us can weigh in on **Bricker’s** OP without that info. [This](http://legis.sd.gov/legislative_session/bills/Bill.aspx?Bill=1008&Session=2016) page traces the bill’s history and gives the text at the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/22 "2016-03-02T16:58:08Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I think K-12 schools are a bad place for social experiments. Maybe we should start in bars, taverns, Capitols and sausage factories … places lil’ children don’t belong. We’d still have all-white schools today if that kind of attitude had been allowed to prevail 60 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/23 "2016-03-02T17:06:21Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I think K-12 schools are a bad place for social experiments. Maybe we should start in bars, taverns, Capitols and sausage factories … places lil’ children don’t belong. Universal K-12 education was once considered a “social experiment.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/24 "2016-03-02T17:18:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ll answer your questions, but first I’d like some clarification on your examples: do they deny equal protection of the law to citizens? I would say so, although perhaps we are foundering on “protection.” Protection means to shield, to guard. Each example guards rights for some citizens but not others. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/25 "2016-03-02T17:28:51Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Would you argue for this specific law to be attacked (through legislative pressure) on the same grounds that you praise in the OP, which is that it doesn’t address a pressing issue? And if so, do you propose we attack voter ID laws for the same reason? This may be the nuance of your position that I don’t fully understand; ISTR that you’re in favor of voter ID laws not just because they’ve passed legislative muster, but because creating a perception of integrity is reason enough. I agree that creating a perception of integrity is reason enough. But still, Voter ID laws should be subject to legislative pressure to change them to better accomplish this goal. For example, I have long favored the idea of replacing mandatory photo ID with a fingerprint. The whole point is to indisputably tie the registered person to the voter. Show up, ink your thumb, press it into the book. That should allay fears about integrity: everyone knows the thumbprint serves as an irrefutable proof that the person voted. If there are any subsequent questions, if a voter turns out to be voting illegally, he can be easily prosecuted. And from the side of those opposed to cost: virtually all voters have fingerprints, supplied to them at no charge. This is the kind of legislative change I would like to see. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/26 "2016-03-02T17:33:14Z")
So why isn’t the perception of safety reason enough in this case? Is it just because Fox News hasn’t worked up a sufficient amount of frenzy over bathroom safety like they did over election integrity? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/27 "2016-03-02T17:43:14Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > So why isn’t the perception of safety reason enough in this case? > > Is it just because Fox News hasn’t worked up a sufficient amount of frenzy over bathroom safety like they did over election integrity? If I may play Bricker’s Advocate for a moment, I can see where he’s coming from here. Voter impersonation is a thing that can plausibly happen in states without voter ID laws. It’s rare, and I doubt it’s ever changed the outcome of an election, but someone could in good faith argue that ID laws are needed to prevent it from happening. (I would disagree with them on that point.) The spectre that’s being used to oppose transgender anti-discrimination policies is that it will allow cisgender men to hang out in ladies’ rooms for prurient purposes. That is _not_ a thing that can plausibly happen. It’s a phantom menace. No transgender anti-discrimination law legalizes harassing or peeping on people in the bathroom regardless of gender. It does not authorize a man who identifies as male to hang out in the ladies’ room. No act which it is currently illegal for a man to commit in a bathroom suddenly becomes legal by dint of his declaring “I identified as a woman on that particular day”. There is no problem which the SD bill exists to solve, because its existence is predicated on fiction. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/28 "2016-03-02T17:47:48Z")
Pointless legislation in response to a widely held but ultimately incorrect public perception is OK as long as the incorrect public perception is only _demonstrably_ incorrect instead of _laughably_ incorrect. Is that what I’m hearing? Sounds like we’re splitting hairs, but whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/29 "2016-03-02T17:52:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I would say so, although perhaps we are foundering on “protection.” Protection means to shield, to guard. Each example guards rights for some citizens but not others. I’m sorry, but I still need more clarification. The fourteenth amendment requires equal protection of the law for all citizens. You seem to be saying that your examples violate this principle, but presumably are not declaring minimum voter age laws to be unconstitutional. Could you explain the apparent discrepancy in your position? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/30 "2016-03-02T18:13:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We’d still have all-white schools today if that kind of attitude had been allowed to prevail 60 years ago. That kind of attitude prevails to this very day, have you not been listening to the current political discourse? Would you be shocked to learn that there are still all-white schools in the USA? Remember, the SCOTUS ruling that lead to integrating our schools also had the far-reaching effect of integrating _all_ public services. It wasn’t a social experiment so as much as it was implementing the 14[sup]th[/sup] Amendment. South Dakota should “integrate” all their bathrooms at once, not just try it in the schools and see what happens. My personal views are I don’t care, I’m there to piss and generally ignore everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/31 "2016-03-02T18:30:54Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I think K-12 schools are a bad place for social experiments. Maybe we should start in bars, taverns, Capitols and sausage factories … places lil’ children don’t belong. …and this seems like the type of thing that should be up to the parents. Why on earth would anybody want to enable and encourage transgender children? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/32 "2016-03-02T18:32:10Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Why on earth would anybody want to enable and encourage transgender children? Because they aren’t pieces of shit? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/33 "2016-03-02T18:37:05Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > …and this seems like the type of thing that should be up to the parents. > Why on earth would anybody want to enable and encourage transgender children? Because it tends to be brutal to disable and discourage transgender children. We as a society must tolerate all transgender peoples, for the littlest to the oldest, and include them. 60 years ago they were the ones that were beat up on the school grounds, with the gym teacher saying they should “man-up”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/34 "2016-03-02T18:40:51Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > …and this seems like the type of thing that should be up to the parents. I would have agreed with this in the past. Past me was wrong. > [@](#): > > Why on earth would anybody want to enable and encourage transgender children? Because the alternative is [transgender children killing themselves when their parents refuse to accept them for who they are.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Leelah_Alcorn) ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/35 "2016-03-02T18:55:34Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Because they aren’t pieces of shit? You people were never slapped or beaten for disobeying your parents? ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/36 "2016-03-02T18:57:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I would have agreed with this in the past. Past me was wrong. > > Because the alternative is [transgender children killing themselves when their parents refuse to accept them for who they are.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Leelah_Alcorn) How could children be emotionally/psychologically mature enough to know? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/37 "2016-03-02T19:02:53Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > How could children be emotionally/psychologically mature enough to know? Did _you_ know what your gender identity was when you were a child? I did. Thankfully, my identity and my biological gender are the same. Chances are, yours were as well. But let’s say that no, even though you’re biologically male and you identify as male, your parents told you you were a girl, and you were therefore obliged to wear frilly dresses and play with dolls and have a girl’s name. What effect do you think that would have on a young mind? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/38 "2016-03-02T20:01:16Z")
Well, I’m glad we can now discuss beating transgendered children instead of the merits of the bill. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/39 "2016-03-02T20:10:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, I’m glad we can now discuss beating transgendered children instead of the merits of the bill. Implying that the bill _has_ merits. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727/40 "2016-03-02T20:26:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m sorry, but I still need more clarification. The fourteenth amendment requires equal protection of the law for all citizens. You seem to be saying that your examples violate this principle, but presumably are not declaring minimum voter age laws to be unconstitutional. Could you explain the apparent discrepancy in your position? The courts recognize that legislation cannot treat all citizens exactly the same way. Otherwise two year olds would be permitted to vote. So legislatures are entitled to treat similarly situated citizens differently based on some classifications. Age, for example. The courts have recognized that other classifications are inherently “suspect” because they have generally been applied specifically to disadvantage particular minorities. Race is the classic example. As a result, the courts apply varying levels of scrutiny to “unequal” laws based on the type of discrimination involved. Rational basis review, the lowest level, applies to most classifications including age, and is a low bar for the government to meet (actually the government doesn’t even have to meet it because under rational basis review the challenger is obligated to prove that the law is unconstitutional, rather than the other way around). So legislation that discriminates against 17 year olds who want to vote is okay. Legislation that discriminates against Hispanic people who want to vote is not. > [@Smapti](#): > > Implying that the bill _has_ merits. Meh. Personally, I support the right of the transgendered to be treated based on their gender identity rather than physiological gender, but I understand the motivations of the bill’s proponents. This isn’t quite like, say, gay marriage, where it really doesn’t affect anyone else. Allowing biologically male children to use womens’ restrooms does affect other people, though only to a slight degree. It’s bound to upset people who don’t understand how the whole transgender thing works (which, based on the Jenner kerfuffle is most of them). That is not to say that they are right, just that their concerns are understandable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-dakota-governor-vetos-school-locker-room-gender-bill/747727.md?page=3)