# South Park 12/7 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625 "2005-12-08T04:37:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/41 "2005-12-10T19:07:32Z")
> [@beergeek279](#): > > On another note, the Catholic League has just condemned the episode and asked for an apology (I’m sure Parker and Stone will be rushing to do that…) > > [MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10386758/from/RL.4/) I wonder how they feel about all those other “bleeding statues”. Or about the Virgin Mary appearing in a tortilla. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/42 "2005-12-10T20:19:05Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > Well, thats the other thing. It isn’t really a religious organization. There is a section in the book (I’m going from memory here, I worked in a psych hospital but its been a couple of decades) about how you can still work the program and be an atheist. Yeah, it’s not religious at all. You just have to believe there’s a “higher power” that can magically heal you. I’ve heard the mantra many time from 12-step advocates that “It doesn’t have to be God. You just have to believe there’s something higher than yourself.” Usually, it’s difficult to get them to cite a coherent example of a “higher power” that is NOT God. The one semi-presentable suggestion I’ve ever heard is that you can think of the group itself as your higher power, but that still leaves a number of problems. For one thing, no matter how reasonable this sounds in theory, in _practice_ these groups are all highly religious. Every meeting I’ve ever been to (I’m not an alcoholic but I’ve been the designated support buddy or family member on several occasions) has ended with a group prayer and has been rife with overt religiosity, pleas for members to turn their lives over to Jesus, etc. Anyone who doesn’t want to pray or claims to be an atheist is branded as being “unccoperative” or “in denial.” I know more than one person who has given up on AA simply because they can’t find a group that’s at all amenable to non-theistic alternatives to higher power. For another thing, if the group is your “higher power,” what does it mean to “turn your life over” to this group? How much power should you give them? Is it really very rational or sane to surrender all personal autonomy to a bunch of drunks? What exactly is it that they’re supposed to do to heal you? And even if the group (or some other non-theistic otion) can serve as your higher power, it’s STILL a system that recognizes faith healing as a legitimate option. After all, your higher power doesn’t_have_ to be tangible or real. AA still thinks that prayer is a legitimate form of treatment and that you CAN be healed by magic. What doctor would ever say that prayer is a valid form of treatment for cancer or diabetes? Just because some AA advocates try to argue that the system doesn’t _have_ to be religious doesn’t mean it’s not still a system which , at the very least, considers faith healing to be _legitimate_, and that is not medicine. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/43 "2005-12-10T20:46:07Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Yeah, it’s not religious at all. You just have to believe there’s a “higher power” that can magically heal you. Well, this is turning into a bit of a hijack and I’m not really trying to defend the organization just point some inaccuracies in the show…but they dont believe you can be healed by anything…higher power or no… 12 step programs are iirc just a system for dealing with the disease and making life manageable. You aren’t cured or healed by it. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/44 "2005-12-10T22:30:38Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > And the fact that Mr. Garrison is hardly a spokesperson for any group and arguably should be committed. He’s not an average homosexual and not an average transexual, but seems to be on the nutty fringe of both groups. Heck, in the old NAMBLA episode, Mr. Garrison was a pedophile setting up meetings with boys on the Internet! He’s just a screwed up individual, period! ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/45 "2005-12-10T23:57:55Z")
> [@BluePitbull](#): > > I found that odd that there was an alien in the window Good for you. Did you actually read what I wrote? ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/46 "2005-12-11T02:52:39Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > Well, this is turning into a bit of a hijack and I’m not really trying to defend the organization just point some inaccuracies in the show…but they dont believe you can be healed by anything…higher power or no… 12 step programs are iirc just a system for dealing with the disease and making life manageable. You aren’t cured or healed by it. specifically they help the individual develope new behaviors only and do little or nothing to address the underlying issues that brought the individual to that particular addiction in the first place ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/47 "2005-12-11T03:11:10Z")
I liked the episode. A couple things I don’t like about 12-step: Higher Power. What the hell is that? What if my higher power is Satan? How long am I going to last in 12-step? We’re all powerless and addicts, brother (or sister). What’s up with that? I’ve been to some AA meetings with friends who were going though it. Dude, I’m a heroin addict, I rob liquor stores, I beat my wife, I suck cock to pay for my crystal, etc, etc. We’re all equal here, man. Uh, no we’re not. I don’t beat my wife. I don’t rob liquor stores. I don’t suck cock for my next high. No, we’re not all equal in our addict-ness. You sir, are scum. I am just a guy who drinks way too much. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/48 "2005-12-11T03:37:18Z")
> [@jackelope](#): > > I am _so funny_. Looks aren’t everything. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/49 "2005-12-11T05:03:45Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > specifically they help the individual develope new behaviors only and do little or nothing to address the underlying issues that brought the individual to that particular addiction in the first place Right, the underlying issues being genetic in nature theres not much they can do. Its a less than perfect system for sure. However, with the lack of something better and especially the lack of something better to people with no money or insurance, its often better than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/50 "2005-12-11T05:06:39Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Higher Power. What the hell is that? What if my higher power is Satan? How long am I going to last in 12-step? > > . I actually know at least one person with about 10 years clean who’s higher power is Satan. They really dont care. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/51 "2005-12-11T05:21:49Z")
> [@bdgr](#): > > I actually know at least one person with about 10 years clean who’s higher power is Satan. They really dont care. Laura Bush, is that you??? ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/52 "2005-12-11T05:51:34Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Laura Bush, is that you??? lol ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/53 "2005-12-11T08:52:00Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Heck, in the old NAMBLA episode, Mr. Garrison was a pedophile setting up meetings with boys on the Internet! He’s just a screwed up individual, period! And went to the wrong NAMBLA meeting(somehow confusing the Marlon Brando guys with the perverts). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625/54 "2005-12-30T21:53:27Z")
Looks like their is a pertinent update to this episode and the Catholic league: Details in this new thread [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6947441#post6947441](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6947441#post6947441) posted by \*\*[Not A Tame Lion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?userid=49976) \*\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-12-7/334625.md?page=2)