# South Park Mormons **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578 "2003-11-21T21:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/81 "2003-11-23T06:55:50Z")
You don’t know how good you had it. Try this one on for size: Read the Bible, word for word, literally. Twice a week bible studies in homes (no churches, preachers travelled by twos.) No short hair for girls, no long hair for boys. No pants for girls, no makeup. No TV, no radio. No dancing. No Christmas trees, no Easter bunnies. No sports involvement, as to avoid all the “worldly” children. Sorry for the hijack. Excuse me while I go kiss my sleeping children and assure them that they won’t go through the same hell I did growing up. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/82 "2003-11-23T08:42:43Z")
Tsk Tsk **gobear**. You should know better than this. > [@](#): > > That God was once a man Wasn’t he? > [@](#): > > That marriages can be sealed in Temples I feel that I’m in [good company](http://scriptures.lds.org/matt/16/19#19). > [@](#): > > That one must perform ordinances to earn grace Oh come on. We don’t believe that anyone can earn grace. We believe [certain ordinances](http://scriptures.lds.org/john/3/5#5) are necessary, but we’re hardly alone in that. You might want to ask some Catholics about it someday. > [@](#): > > That Jesus was conceived by a physical act What do you mean? An unfertilized egg became a zygote by some means, which later became a child born of Mary. Was that not physical? > [@](#): > > That souls pre-exist physical incarnation Did the Incarnation pre-exist the physical incarnation? > [@](#): > > That the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and D&C are equal to the Bible No, we don’t. We accept those books as revealed scripture along with the Bible, but they are clearly not equal–nor are the books of Matthew and Deuteronomy equal. > [@](#): > > That faithful Mormons can become Gods themselves Again, I feel in [good company](http://scriptures.lds.org/rom/8/17#17) with that one. > [@](#): > > That women can only attain the highest level of salvation through their husbands Patently false. Women can only receive the highest level of salvation **with** their husbands. Just as men can receive the highest level of salvation **with** their wives. > [@](#): > > And just from a purely secular view, the BoM is unadulterated eyewash–there were no Nephites, no Lamanites. no Alma, no Zeezrom, no Coriantumr, no Abinadi, no Jewish empires in the New World. Joseph Smith devised a clever work of fiction, but that’s all it is. If you want to propose this as another thread, I’d be happy to participate. However, your claim that the BoM is fiction is a much harder claim to prove than you might think. Especially with more and more evidences to the contrary on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/83 "2003-11-23T08:45:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > Heh. I have a Mormon friend who’s currently on a mission in South America, and he’s smoked _a lot_ of pot, gotten drunk, and had sex outside of marriage. The Mormon in _Orgazmo_–who is very reluctant to get into “the business”, and never actually has sex on film–is a saint in comparison. We also believe in repentence. And those who sincerely repent are forgiven. However, were he to do such activities while serving a mission, part of the repentence process would be to end the mission then and there, and most likely be excommunicated. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/84 "2003-11-23T08:53:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aurelian \* > Wow. I’m being earnest here, how do you do that? How is it possible to be human and not have ‘moral problems’? Saints have had crises of faith, popes have contradicted, even fought each other… Most people go through some crisis of faith, and some saints don’t deserve the title. I’d argue that the warring popes weren’t very good popes, etc. I was making no claim that missionaries are perfect. Far from it. However, as ambassadors of the church (and indeed, of Christ) they lead lives of strict moral purity. They work 6.5 days a week teaching people about Christ (the other 0.5 day is for laundry, etc.) and frankly don’t have much time to get into trouble. That isn’t to say they never make mistakes, but serious mistakes result in serious consequences. By moral problems I mean actively engaging in moral transgression. But indeed, if someone is indeed going through a crisis of faith, he should not be serving as a missionary. If he can’t control his actions within a certain range, he shouldn’t be serving as a missionary. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/85 "2003-11-23T11:07:53Z")
Getting right back to foundations, can someone who is a currently practicing LDS affirm or deny, categorically, that Joseph Smith was given the second translation of the BoM by looking at a stone in a hat? That’s all I want to know – was it a stone in a hat, or not? ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/86 "2003-11-23T15:03:18Z")
I am not a member, but I have in the past asked members about the stones in the hat story. The answer was yes. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/87 "2003-11-23T16:58:52Z")
All together now! _singing_ dum dum dum dum dum! ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/88 "2003-11-23T16:59:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > **See, you have to understand that statement is simply other-worldly. A missionary is screened beforehand, and he simply is not allowed to serve if he’s got moral problems. While I’m not saying all missionaries are perfect, they are engaged in work that we consider sacred (the sharing of the Gospel) and they strive to not only live the highest moral standards, but also not even give the impression of sin.** Hmmmm… You obviously didn’t serve in the same mission I served in. Sure, we had missionaries who were honest and faithful and striving their hardest to be good people. We also had missionaries, however, who were only their because of pressure from friends and family, who had no testimony whatsoever, and who got into all sorts of trouble (several missionaries got sent home for sexual indiscretion, one actually got deported for theft, etc.) Yes, some (perhaps most) missionaries are “engaged in work that we consider sacred (the sharing of the Gospel) and they strive to not only live the highest moral standards, but also not even give the impression of sin.” But it would be a flat-out lie to say that all missionaries are like this or even that they are “carefully screened”. 19-year-old Mormon boys are expected to go on missions, and in many cases they are allowed to go even if they don’t have testimonies, in the hope that they will gain one while on the job. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. Barry ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/89 "2003-11-23T17:21:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > \*\*However, your claim that the BoM is fiction is a much harder claim to prove than you might think. Especially with more and more evidences to the contrary on a regular basis. \*\* Allow me to repeat myself, then: “Is there any archaeological evidence to support this claim (specifically, that people from Israel came to the Americas ~600BC, not whether the Book of Mormon is their record)?” I’d think this would be pretty key in establishing whether the BoM is a work of fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/90 "2003-11-23T17:38:59Z")
Unless, of course, there’s something in there about the society being destroyed without a trace. BTW, tell me about Sodom. I’m interested in walking down main street. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/91 "2003-11-23T18:27:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, some (perhaps most) missionaries are “engaged in work that we consider sacred (the sharing of the Gospel) and they strive to not only live the highest moral standards, but also not even give the impression of sin.” But it would be a flat-out lie to say that all missionaries are like this or even that they are “carefully screened”. 19-year-old Mormon boys are expected to go on missions, and in many cases they are allowed to go even if they don’t have testimonies, in the hope that they will gain one while on the job. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. Oh yes, missionaries aren’t always the best. But you may be interested to hear that things are changing in that department; about a year ago, it was announced that missionaries are expected to be prepared when they show up at the MTC. They are far more careful about who gets to go–the number of elders serving has dropped about 25% in our area, according to the local elders, and guys are expected to have behaved better and to already have testimonies. It’s much easier to misbehave yourself right out of a chance to go now (barring of couse outright lying, which is the liar’s problem), or to be asked to wait and prepare for a year or so. In addition, they have pretty much dropped the discussions in the format that used to exist; missionaries are to teach pretty much the same stuff in about the same order, of course, but the focus is on teaching with the Spirit and not on memorization. I asked some elders (who had both been out for over a year) recently about how all this is working out, and they said that although the numbers have gone down, the quality has gone up so much that the work is going better, even with fewer missionaries in the field. They were very enthusiastic about the whole thing. I hope that another effect within the next several years will be that the social pressure to serve a mission lessens. **Darwin’s Finch** , I’ll work on something for you, but things are pretty crazy today, and it may be a little while before I can put together something with links and so on. Please be patient with a seriously sleep-deprived mommy! ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/92 "2003-11-23T20:29:03Z")
I just was on a trip to downstate Illinois and saw historical markers that mentioned the Mormon war as well as the exterminiation order put out for all Mormons by the governor of Missouri. I don’t understand how either were skipped in my history class since we did Illinois and midwest history. I am having trouble finding information that is not strongly biased one way or the other. Does anyone know of sites for good information on these things? ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/93 "2003-11-23T22:04:43Z")
OK. so. Archaelogical evidence for the BoM. There is not a whole lot of _direct_ evidence, such as, say, a large ancient city with “Welcome to Zarahemla” emblazoned on the gate in Reformed Egyptian.\* As a matter of fact, we have not got a very good idea of where the BoM events even took place, although current opinion places everything in a fairly small section of Central America. The BoM is rather short on obvious cultural details, being a brief and abridged account of the religious history of a small people.\*\* They were probably assimilated into a larger population, though the book fails to mention that. Cultural details are instead buried within the text and have to be dug out through careful study. \*(I read recently about a ruin they found in the 50’s that was thought to be a good candidate for Zarahemla, actually. Unfortunately it was almost immediately put underwater by dam construction, and there it remains today.) \*\*(Actually, the BoM is a very complex book, which describes three distinct cultures and features hundreds of people with confusing names engaging in complicated maneuvers. Story lines are left hanging and then taken up again much later, documents are interleaved and interrupted, and so on–all without plot holes or mistakes.) That said, there is a surprising amount to be gotten from the BoM, and many details from both ancient Hebrew and ancient Meso-American culture that Joseph Smith, or anyone else back then, could not have known. For example, the language of the BoM teems with ‘Hebraisms,’ phrasing that sounds weird in English but makes perfect sense in Hebrew. The original manuscript (which recently came to light) was packed with them, but Smith went through and edited a lot of them out in order to make it easier to read. Many still remain, and constructions such as “and it came to pass,” “dreamed a dream,” “with much harshness,” and many, many others are very Hebrew in character. Hebrew is a favorite language to learn among students of the BoM. Another fun one is that ever since the BoM was published, critics have howled with laughter at the idea that the Arabian peninsula could possibly have a river or a green oasis-type place as described in the BoM. Within the past few years, both have been discovered in just about exactly the places Nephi claims them to be located–in fact we have two candidates for the land Bountiful. A link below will give you pictures. Anyway, that’s enough for now, and I’ll list you some links to explore. [This essay](http://www.nauvoo.com/library/bookofmormon.html), by the SF author Orson Scott Card, is an enjoyable favorite of mine on whether or not Joseph Smith could have written the BoM-- from the perspective of someone who knows the craft of writing documents purporting to describe foreign cultures and histories. Jeff Lindsay runs a website condensing FAQs about many facets of LDS beliefs and which also gathers a lot of [Book of Mormon evidences](http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml) together in an easy-to-locate place. This is not an offical LDS website and I make no claims as to its completeness or anything, but it does have quite a bit of good information. This is the one with photos of the Arabian peninsula. [FARMS](http://farms.byu.edu/), the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, is where most of the major scholarly work on archaeology, linguistics, ancient culture, and whatnot takes place. They publish a lot, and you can look around the site, but there doesn’t seem to be a lot for non-subscribers. [This](http://preview.farmsresearch.com/) appears to be a beta version of a coming new FARMS website. There are several featured articles from the current issue of the _Journal of Book of Mormon Studies_, which you may wish to peruse. Sadly, the JBMS archives are subscriber-only, but [here](http://farms.byu.edu/featuredpapers/index.php?cat=1) is a list of featured papers on the BoM that you can read. [This one](http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=1&table=transcripts) in particular may interest you. Finally, a good book recently came out gathering evidences for the BoM together in a nice layman’s format. [Echoes and evidences of the Book of Mormon](http://www.byubookstore.com/ePOS?store=1&item_number=0%2d934893%2d72%2d1&form=shared%2fgm%2fdetail%2ehtml&design=1), ed. by Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, and John W. Welch may well be available near you through a library or by wandering into your friendly neighborhood LDS bookstore (if one exists) and browsing a bit. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/94 "2003-11-23T22:28:31Z")
Dang, I forgot to put in my disclaimer. I am pretty convinced that no amount of evidence, archaeological, linguistic, or otherwise, is going to convince anyone of the truthfulness and authenticity of the Book of Mormon, and I have no expectation that all this will serve to convert anyone here. Only the influence of the Spirit can really do that. All this research is quite informative and interesting and all, and it does serve to strengthen many people’s testimonies, but it does not serve as a real basis for testimony. That is what prayer and the Holy Ghost do. OTOH, we’ve been collecting our evidence for quite a while now, and it’s becoming much more difficult to simply pooh-pooh it all, though that is exactly what everyone resolutely does–not that we expect any different. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/95 "2003-11-23T22:56:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > > The LDS believe in Jesus, but the areas where you depart from Christian orthodoxy are substantial. > > but you must agree that the LDS and the other Christian sects have serious, mutually incompatible beliefs. > > Joseph Smith devised a clever work of fiction, but that’s all it is. > > " \*\* Thank you! Thank you for speaking the (unpopular) truth on here. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/96 "2003-11-23T23:04:52Z")
God was always God; at least the bible says that, but whenver the Bible says something not compatible with LDS, its In error. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/97 "2003-11-23T23:08:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Thank you! > Thank you for speaking the (unpopular) truth on here. \*\* Upopular truth, indeed. And yet, no more unpopular than the truth that the Bible is also no more than a (not so) clever work of fiction. If one can suspend disbelief enough to accept the historical innacuracies, unproven claims, and internal inconsistencies of the Bible, why on Earth would one care if other people believe in the Book of Mormon as well? You might as well say that “The Lord of the Rings” is factual, but that "Harry Potter’ is obviously a work of fiction. ALL religions are the invention of man. Why pick on one religion for being nonsensical and/or unprovable? At least Mormons, for the most part, try to make the world a better place. Barry ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/98 "2003-11-23T23:24:26Z")
you have a point. My point, however, is that Christianity and Mormonism are 2 different religions (even if you think they are both fiction, they do not agree) Make the world better? I know lots of Chrsitians who do. My church sent shoeboxes to children in other countries for Xmas! not to mention my church bought me and my son underwear, socks, a scarf, winter jacket, and boots. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/99 "2003-11-23T23:36:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by godzillatemple \* > \*\* You might as well say that “The Lord of the Rings” is factual, but that "Harry Potter’ is obviously a work of fiction. > Barry \*\* Damn straight! QtM, Iluvatarian-Eruite ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/100 "2003-11-24T02:32:35Z")
**Emarkp** ,i’m not going to argue the points because I don’t care at all about the virtues of two groups that worship imaginary beings. Suffice it to say that other Christian sects find the differences betweren themselves and the LDS to be sginifcant. **Vanilla** , please don’t help. **Genie** , the “Hebraisms” you are so fond of are in the BoM because Joseph Smith lifted the tone (and much of the text) from the KJV. And the green oases of the Arabian peninsula are not as much of a novelty as you might think. Here’s a skeptical [article](http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/curt_heuvel/bom_bible.html) discussing problems with the BoM. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578.md?page=6)