# South Park Mormons **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578 "2003-11-21T21:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/141 "2003-11-25T08:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zoo \* > How many angels was that there were dancing on that pin??? Why, 42 of course. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/142 "2003-11-25T14:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\*There’s a scene (it might be in the movie, but I don’t recall exactly) where a bunch of newly departed souls are in line for the afterlife, and a guy behind a desk says something to the effect of, “Okay, all of you religious people, you’re all going to Hell, except the Mormons. If you aren’t Mormon, you guessed wrong. Sorry.” So in the South Park universe, the Mormons go to Heaven, and everyone else is damned. \*\* This would appear to be a mis-quote of the Rowan Atkinson [Devil Sketch](http://www.rowanatkinson.org/devil_sketch.htm) > [@](#): > > Okay, and Christians! Christians? Ah yes, I’m sorry, I’m afraid the Jews were right. Please carry on with the debate… 🙂 Grim ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/143 "2003-11-25T15:18:07Z")
I was all ready to stop arguing with you, but nobody calls me a hit-and-run poster and lives. > [@](#): > > Ah, my mistake. You entered the thread repeating incorrect and borderline slanderous comments about my religion, Asking questions is not slander–if I were intent on defaming the LDS, there’s plenty of ammo–you’ll note I said nothing about Emma Smith, Danites, Mountain Meadows Massacre, or the convenient timing of President Woodruff’s word about the end of polygamy in 1890 and President Kimball’s pronouncement on black men becoming priests in 1978. However, I don’t think any of that is at all pertinent to this discussion, so I left it out. > [@](#): > > You’ll pardon me for saying so, but only by sects that are intelectually deficient. The Bible didn’t fall from the sky, and the current New Testament underwent many changes before it settled down into the NT we have today. Indeed, given that one of the other common criticisms of the Book of Mormon is the purported 4000+ changes to the BoM. Those changes were minor compared to whole books being added/removed from the canon of the NT. Agreed, but that’s not the point. We’re not talking about the history of NT scholarship, but merely contrasting the teachings the various denominations versus those of the LDS. In regard to theology, I’m only discussing what each sect believes, not whether that belief can be backed up by evidence (because none of it can). For example, one can discuss what the LDS teach about Adam and Eve versus the standard Christian line without believing in the Adam and Eve story at all. > [@](#): > > . For > You’re the non-Christian skeptic who is so fixated on a definition of Christianity which excludes whole groups of Christians. That’s begging the question. First, we need to come up with the criteria that define the domain of Christian belief, then see which articles of faith the LDS and other denominations share and which elements are idiosyncratic. > [@](#): > > I’m fully aware of that. My criticism is aimed at the so-called Christians who come up with the sound bites that you and others enumerate. > \ > I wasn’t so much saying you’re cutting and pasting scripture, rather that you’re cutting and pasting from anti-Mormon websites/publications–either that or you’ve learned the anti-Mormon linebook by heart. This is what I find really insulting. I’m using the texts of the BoM and the KJV from the [Electronic Text Center](http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/) at the University of Virginia, as well as pages from the skeptic Web sites [Infidels.org](http://www.infidels.org) and the [Annotated Book of Mormon](http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/annotated/intro.shtml), as my sources. I can read for myself, thank you. In addition, you have the habit of calling any source that hews less than 100% to the LDS line “anti-Mormon.” Some, like a first-person confessional I read called [Out of Mormonism](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764226045/qid=1069770637/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8213031-7149500?v=glance&s=books), are obviously fundie-driven, anti-Mormon screeds, which are obviously biased and deeply subjective. Others, like [American Massacre](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375412085/qid=1069770703/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-8213031-7149500), are more balanced treatments of events that are part of the LDS history, deny it how you will. But to you, any source that questions the veracity of the BoM is just dismissed as anti-Mormon bigotry without any serious discussion of the issues raised. As I said, I was ready to walk away because ultimately trying to use logic and evidence against faith is like trying to cut a rainbow with a sword, but since you called me a “hit-and-run poster,” **emarkp** , I’ll be damned if I back down now. **Genie** wrote: > [@](#): > > Christ is one of God’s spirit children, but has always had a pre-eminent place, and volunteered for the job of Savior. That seems to say that there are many children and Jesus is just one of them, not the same thing as “only begotten.” **Godzillatemple** wrote: > [@](#): > > The fact that Mormons believe that Christ, along with the rest of humanity, is also the spiritual child of God is irrelevant. After all, don’t most Christian religions teach that we are all the children of God in a spiritual sense? I think that you are confusing “spirit” with “spiritual.” Yes, Christians believe that the saved become engrafted children of God, but NOT that they are of the same substance or the same kind of being as Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/144 "2003-11-25T15:20:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Yes, Christians believe that the saved become engrafted children of God, but NOT that they are of the same substance or the same kind of being as Jesus. \*\* Cite? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/145 "2003-11-25T15:27:23Z")
I think gobear is preaching to the choir here. Besides, no mormon could admit or realize that the inconsistencies and one day we believe this, next day its completely okay are true. it would destory their faith. They will never admit error. They _can’t_ . ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/146 "2003-11-25T15:29:42Z")
Hey **GrimPixie** , maybe the South Park guys were playing off that bit. I’ve seen the clip myself, it has a similar feel. “Um, the correct answer was the _Mormons_. Yes, the Mormons. Sorry, the rest of you were incorrect.” Something like that. But I haven’t the faintest idea where it’s from; it just got passed around online. Anyway, if **gobear** is still around, I’ll work up something later today, and I’ve been meaning to find something for **KellyM** on the extermination order. (Sorry, KellyM. I’m still looking for an online source for you, as opposed to a book.) Anyway, none of that can be unti lthis afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/147 "2003-11-25T15:39:44Z")
For what it’s worth, Here’s how Merriam-Webster defines “Christian”: > [@](#): > > 1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ And here’s what [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com) has to say on the subject: > [@](#): > > Chris·tian > adj. > > 1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. > 2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings. > 3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. > 4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. > 5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane. > > n. > > 1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. > 2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus. Again, I have to ask, who appointed **gobear** , **vanilla** , et al. as the sole arbiters of what it means to be “Christian”? Anybody here familiar with the “No True Scotsman” fallacy? Barry ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/148 "2003-11-25T16:04:25Z")
> [@](#): > > ## _Originally posted by godzillatemple_ > > ## Originally posted by gobear Yes, Christians believe that the saved become engrafted children of God, but NOT that they are of the same substance or the same kind of being as Jesus. > > Cite? " Based on verses like Luke 10:22: "All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. " and John 14:6, ““6”: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me,” the standard line is that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity in a special relationship to God the Father. Moreover, the Nicene Creed, which is the official stance of most Christian denominations, says quite clearly, "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, \*\* the only Son of God,\*\* eternally begotten of the Father, Regarding the paternity of Jesus, I found this bit at [religioustolerance.org](http://www.religioustolerance.org/jesus_pa.htm) > [@](#): > > Elder Bruce R. McConkie: “God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God and that designation means what it says.” “Mormon Doctrine,” (1979) Page 742 > \ > As a result of these passages, local Mormon teachers have often taught that God actually engaged in sexual activity with Mary in order to impregnate her. The latter teaching has not been stressed in recent years, and has never been official church policy. So I’m not making this up, although I grant the point that it’s not official doctrine. Sorry, **Godzillatemple,** the dictionary defintions do not count–only what Christian denominations themselves say. I’m surprised that you present the defintions so uncritically; I’m sure the Jewish and Muslim Dopers must be pleased to note that “5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane” is how one defines a Christian. In addition, the OTS fallacy does not apply here–we are discusssing the definition, not finding exceptions to examples. This is more of a parallel to the “Who is a Jew” discussions, and I doubt you’d use the OTS rule to dismiss Ultra-Orthodox objections to the Reform synagogue. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/149 "2003-11-25T17:33:31Z")
Emarkp said, “Long story short: Martin Harris borrowed 116 pages of the translation to prove the work to his wife (Harris mortgaged his farm to pay for the initial publication of the Book of Mormon). While it was in his possession, Joseph Smith’s wife Emma gave birth to a stillborn child–he was a bit distracted for a week or two. When he checked up on Harris, the pages had been lost, and when he inquired of God as to whether to retranslate, he was told not to.” How conveeeeeeeeenient! ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/150 "2003-11-25T19:29:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blonde \* > No pants for girls, Hmmm…I wouldn’t object if women walked around with no pants on.😉 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/151 "2003-11-25T22:55:36Z")
you sir, are a pervert! 😉 besides, if they are temple worthy, they wear churchly underwear. so go look up somebodys elses skirt! ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/152 "2003-11-25T23:20:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by genie \* > **filmyak, I’m glad you’re looking for some actual fact-based information, and there are several Mormons here who can help you out. The LDS website is “brief on details,” yes, but not because they’re embarrassed. It’s meant as a starting point. There’s plenty more available.** Gee I have been looking for “fact-based” information about many religions for years, and have yet to find it. To me, a fact is something that can be independently verified, so please, if you can point me to anything that can do this for Mormonism, much less Christianity, I would be grateful. > [@](#): > > **written in what the BOM calls ‘reformed Egyptian,’ which seems to have been Hebrew language written in Egyptian writing so as to take up less space.** OK, why did the angel take the plates away, how did these people know how to translate this Egyptian language, if god or whoever wanted to communicate some message to this dude, why didn’t he do it in English–surely god knows how to speak english, now doesn’t he? > [@](#): > > **Why do we believe that Smith didn’t make the whole thing up? Because we ask God for a spiritual witness of the truth of the gospel. Every Mormon is taught from a young age to pray for answers and listen for them, and then to ask God for confirmation (or denial) of every aspect of the Church and in personal life, from the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and other books of scripture, to the veracity of the statements of the prophet, to whether or not it would be a good idea to marry this person or take this job. Oh, and we also enjoy research and whatnot; it just isn’t the core basis for our beliefs.** So, when you’re listening for these answers, in what form do they come? Do you actually hear god speaking in your head? I always thought that hearing voices in your head was called schizophrenia, I don’t know. But regardless, you say that every Mormon is taught from a young age to pray and ask for these answers…so these people are already Mormon, so they already believe in all this stuff, so how can we trust in the answers they are hearing when they aren’t even asking them until after they have become indoctrinated in the religion? > [@](#): > > **I personally find it hard to believe that Joseph Smith (a poor and uneducated farm laborer) could have come up with about 40 pounds of gold, hammered it into thin leaves, inscribed words on it in an untranslateable foreign language, shown it to 11 other people but not his wife, and then made it disappear. There are simpler explanations if you want to go for the hoax opinion (though I don’t find them particularly compelling, either).** Well I personally find that easier to believe than the story that an angel appreared and gave him these tablets and then took them away again. Why would it be so hard to believe someone could undertake this hoax? How do we know for sure it was real gold? Was it tested? How do we know what the language was, what if it were just made-up gibberish? Were these 11 witnesses experts in ancient languages? And if the language was “untranslateable,” then how did he translate it? > [@](#): > > **Misinformation about us abounds, however, even in encyclopedias and ‘reputable’ sources, and you would be well advised to ask someone in the know about the accuracy of anything you read** Misinformation abounds because of this air of secrecy surrounding church “rituals.” So can I ask you, as a person in the know, about some of the secret rituals that take place behind closed doors of the temple and secret symbols and such? It’s stuff like that that strengthens my skepticism. I have gone out of my way to try to find out more information about this religion, and hit walls due to the secrecy. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/153 "2003-11-25T23:33:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > The LDS believe in Jesus, but the areas where you depart from Christian orthodoxy are substantial. > > That God was once a man > That marriages can be sealed in Temples > That one must perform ordinances to earn grace > That Jesus was conceived by a physical act > That souls pre-exist physical incarnation > That the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and D&C are equal to the Bible > That faithful Mormons can become Gods themselves > \*\*_That women can only attain the highest level of salvation through their husbands_ > \*\* WTF? Is there any truth in this? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/154 "2003-11-25T23:37:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by emarkp Patently false. Women can only receive the highest level of salvation with their husbands. Just as men can receive the highest level of salvation with their wives._ So an unmarried person cannot achieve the highest level of salvation? ---
**Author:** ![MinniePurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@MinniePurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinniePurl)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/155 "2003-11-25T23:39:41Z")
I believe the South Park “thing” about Mormons comes from Trey Parker (the blond one). His fiance when he was about 20 or so was a Mormon. He apparently caught her in bed with someone else about two weeks before the wedding. He was pretty bitter about it-- the unfaithful horse in “Cannibal” is named Liane, after her, and Cartman’s slutty mother is also named Liane. Now WHY I know this, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/156 "2003-11-26T00:01:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **Sorry, Godzillatemple, the dictionary defintions do not count–only what Christian denominations themselves say.** _sigh_ I have no idea why you have such a bug up your butt about “proving” that Mormons (a.k.a. members of the Church of **Jesus Christ** of Latter-day Saints) aren’t “really” Christians, in spite of the fact that they named their church after Christ, they believe Christ was the literal begotten son of God, that he died for our sins, that rememption can only be had through Christ, etc. I’m tempted to just let it go with a great big “whatever,” but for the sake of accuracy let me just respond to your latest spouting as follows: If “only what Christian denominations themselves say” counts when it comes to determining what is or is not a christian, you’ve got two problems. First, your argument is entirely circular. How does one know if a Christian denomination is really Christian? Well, if other Christian denomination say that denomination is Christian. And how does one know if _those_ denomination are actually Christian? Well, because (presumably) _they_ – or some other “Christian” denominations – say they are Christian. So are Mormons Christians because they say they are Christians? No, because other Christian denominations (who are known to be Christian solely because _other_ “Christian” denominations say they are), say they aren’t. Eventually, you have to get away from defining the term “Christian” solely by looking at what other Christian faiths say is a Christian. It can’t simply be “a Christian is defined as somebody that other Christians say is a Christian.” That’s where dictionary definition come in handy (or at least sets of requirements such as the ones mentioned earlier – a belief that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, that he died for our sins, etc.) Second, there are plenty of Christian denominations that are perfectly comfortable with considering Mormons to also be Christians. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is really only a small, rabid minority who feel the need to villify Mormons with the label “non-Christian.” I’d say you wre in good company, but that would be a lie. Barry ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/157 "2003-11-26T00:11:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nyctea scandiaca \* > WTF? > Is there any truth in this? No, there isn’t. Which is why I [pointed that out on the same page the claim appeared](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4263664#post4263664)–maybe you missed it? ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/158 "2003-11-26T00:15:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nyctea scandiaca \* > So an unmarried person cannot achieve the highest level of salvation? That’s correct. I even provided a link to the relevant LDS scriptures on page 3. [Here is a link to that post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4269156#post4269156). ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/159 "2003-11-26T00:20:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nyctea scandiaca \* > That women can only attain the highest level of salvation through their husbands > > \*\*WTF? > Is there any truth in this? \*\* Yes, just enough to twist in such a way as to get the response they were looking for. Their ploy sure seems to have gotten the desired response from you, didn’t it? The truth of the matter is that the husband needs his wife just as much as she needs him. They need each other. Neither one of them can do it alone. It’s a marriage. ---
**Author:** ![AbbySthrnAccent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@AbbySthrnAccent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AbbySthrnAccent)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/160 "2003-11-26T00:22:40Z")
My apologies. When I started reading the thread there were no posts between the quoted post and my reply. I didn’t realize it had been answered already. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578.md?page=9)