# South Park Mormons **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 21, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578 "2003-11-21T21:37:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/161 "2003-11-26T01:30:12Z")
I’m back! **Gobear,** I think I may see your problem. You seem to feel that we have to _either_ believe that Jesus is just like us (a spirit child of God) _or_ completely different (the physical Son of God and member of the Trinity). But we believe both at the same time. As I said before, Jesus is our Elder Brother–the same ‘species’ as we are, and a spirit child of God. _But_ he has always had a pre-eminent place. Before all this started, God presented a plan to all His children by which we could obtain bodies and continue to learn. This plan necessitated a voluntary sacrifice for sin, and Jesus volunteered for that job. He also stood at the side of the Father and organized our world under His direction (we don’t believe in creation _ex nihilo_, but in organization of chaotic matter). Then he came to earth as our Savior, the literal, sinless, begotten Son of God (unlike the rest of us), paid the price for our sins, and died on the cross. Then he was resurrected as a perfected being and ascended to the Father. He is part of the Godhead, which consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost–we just don’t believe that they are 3 manifestations of the same God, but seperate personages. Only by Christ’s help can we continue to progress and gain forgiveness and salvation–justice and mercy in one package. That’s one of the big differences with us; we believe that God, Jesus Christ, the angels, the fallen spirits, and mortal people are all of the same family. Jesus isn’t “just another spirit child”–we are all, amazingly enough, sons and daughters of God. I hope that helps clear that up–it’s not either/or with us, but both. More later… ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/162 "2003-11-26T01:48:13Z")
For **KellyM** , [This](http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/stu/dcann/exterm.htm) appears to be a pretty good summary of events in Missouri, from a non-LDS perspective. Essentially, The Mormons always banded together and created large, cohesive communities–for fellowship, mutual support, and in order to build a Zion community. Wherever they went, they were eventually thrown out. Wild rumors circulated about their practices (polygamy did not help!), and most importantly, they consituted a large political bloc. This was particularly maddening for the Missourians, who were pro-slavery, and did not want a bunch of abolitionist religious fanatics running things. Mob violence was a constant feature of early Mormon life until the migration to Utah. Far West, Missouri, was particularly bad. Joseph Smith once actually went to Washington DC to place his case before the President. I believe it was Martin van Buren. The President told Smith that his cause was right (that persecution should cease and the Mormons be allowed to practice their faith in peace), but that if he supported the Mormons he would not be reelected. So that didn’t go anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/163 "2003-11-26T03:25:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nyctea scandiaca \* > \*\* > > Misinformation abounds because of this air of secrecy surrounding church “rituals.” So can I ask you, as a person in the know, about some of the secret rituals that take place behind closed doors of the temple and secret symbols and such? It’s stuff like that that strengthens my skepticism. I have gone out of my way to try to find out more information about this religion, and hit walls due to the secrecy. \*\* Be serious! I’ve googled for info about this and you can find the entire rituals printed out online! Try it. There is also a good book by Judy Robertson called Out of Mormonism. She describes in detail the ritual. Also how when her and her family gave up mormonims, all their mormon neighbors stopped letting their children go near hers. Wonder why… ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/164 "2003-11-26T04:10:28Z")
Uh. People are talking to me in this thread like I posted something to it. I don’t remember posting anything in here, and in any case I can’t find the post. Could someone please tell me what I said? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/165 "2003-11-26T04:12:56Z")
we can’t. its secret ---
**Author:** ![barrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/da6949/32.png) [@barrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barrum)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/166 "2003-11-26T04:25:10Z")
## And it’s very hard for me not to write, “Dum, Dum, Dum, Dum, Dum.” While watching and laughing at the South Park episode, I did turn on my TV’s closed captioning to see if they were singing “dum” or “dumb” ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/167 "2003-11-26T04:46:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Where are the archeological remains of the Nephite and Lamanite cities…What about the mentions of horses, elephants, chariots, scimitars, wheat, barley, and other inaccuracies in the BoM? You know, I seem to recall that we [have had](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=128351&perpage=50&highlight=horses%20buffalo&pagenumber=2)[this conversation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=139902&highlight=steel+nephi) before (and last time, you pointed out the rivers in Arabia objection). [Archaeology](http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMEvidence.shtml#arch) has yet to do much in the Mesoamerican area. An awful lot has been lost, and we don’t even have a clear idea of where to look. But there are a couple of candidate ruins (though as I mentioned on I think page one, one is underwater). [Here](http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb2.shtml) is a long piece on plants and animals in general. [Here](http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=129&table=transcripts) is an article on **horses** , though it appears to be incomplete on my browser. [And another](http://www.2s2.com/chapmanresearch/user/documents/horses.html). Additionally, I personally find it entirely plausible that the BoM term ‘horse’ could refer to several different native American animals. It’s interesting to note that the BoM never shows people _riding_ horses, though in Joseph Smith’s day, almost everyone did. Instead, everyone in the BoM walks everywhere, which no one did if they could help it in 1820. It’s very common for people in a new place to call new plants and animals by old names that are ‘close enough’–such as buffalo (whoops! bison) or corn (oh, you mean maize?). Perhaps these ‘horses’ were llamas or similar? **Barley** has indeed been found in several archaelogical digs, the first in 1983 (your sources have not updated their complaints!). [Here](http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=126&table=transcripts) is a short summary article. Scimitars? I don’t remember any scimitars. Perhaps you mean **swords,** which could be the closest term Joseph Smith had for a whacking-type weapon. [This](http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?id=146&table=review) rather lengthy article has a bit on swords—go down and find “Swords in Mesoamerica?” Heck, read the whole thing. As for the DNA question…[Behold!](http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml) All things DNA! Here you will find links to several articles from Nov. 2003’s FARMS issue, which appears to concentrate completely on genetics, as well as a very, very long discussion on the whys and wherefores of everything. Luckily for you, there is a short introduction, but I do expect you to read all of it carefully, especially the FARMS articles, which will be the latest research from LDS scholars. Be sure to click on the PDF versions, since you have to be registered to read the HTML. Enjoy! I hope you will do me the courtesy of reading everything I linked to; some of it is fairly lengthy, I know, but you did ask, and while critics tend to use sound-bite questions, the answers aren’t so conveniently brief. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/168 "2003-11-26T05:23:10Z")
If “believers” continue to refuse to see the faults and weaknessess in our “man-made religion”, we will continue to **amuse** the “non-believers”. God doesn’t have a religious persuasion. We formed religions to honor him, describe him and reflect our perceptions of what his wishes are. Let’s trust Him with all the other details. Although I do enjoy making people laugh:), this probably isn’t the best way to achieve that end. Can’t we all just get along.☹ ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/169 "2003-11-26T05:28:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\*Uh. People are talking to me in this thread like I posted something to it. I don’t remember posting anything in here, and in any case I can’t find the post. Could someone please tell me what I said? 😕 \*\* Oops, sorry, it was **lee**. That’s what I get for not checking. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lee \* > \*\*I just was on a trip to downstate Illinois and saw historical markers that mentioned the Mormon war as well as the exterminiation order put out for all Mormons by the governor of Missouri. I don’t understand how either were skipped in my history class since we did Illinois and midwest history. I am having trouble finding information that is not strongly biased one way or the other. Does anyone know of sites for good information on these things? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/170 "2003-11-26T07:23:04Z")
So…God, THE GOD, is just some schlump from another “world” that achieved a high level of salvation and then populated our world with his “children.” I can see why the Church of Latter Day Saints is spreading so fast, who wouldn’t like to be God in the next life? I just want to clarify, if you’re a 16 year old kid and you get hit by a bus before you can get married and have kids, you’re denied the highest level of heaven? What if you’re a married couple who can’t have children due to infertility, are you denied the highest level of heaven? Considering God made your body (ergo your infertility) that would be really unfair to be denied the highest level of heaven for something which was obviously his plan all along. What if you’re married and your spouse dies and you remarry, do you have more than one husband/wife in the next life? ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/171 "2003-11-26T08:19:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by nyctea scandiaca \* > Gee I have been looking for “fact-based” information about many religions for years, and have yet to find it. To me, a fact is something that can be independently verified, so please, if you can point me to anything that can do this for Mormonism, much less Christianity, I would be grateful. **genie** has listed several facts about mesoamerican archaeology and Saudi geography. These are objective, testable facts last I checked. If you’re looking for a movie reel of Joseph Smith getting the plates, or (for that matter) of Moses and the burning bush, they don’t exist. Indeed, the closest you’re likely to get is the Book of Mormon itself. Consider: the Bible can be postulated to be authored by people long after Christ had come, who made up stories to prove his divinity. Indeed, we see a few examples of people asserting this very thing on a regular basis on the boards. However, the Book of Mormon stands as the keystone to the LDS church. It does not enjoy the continuous tradition the Bible did of being handed down from one generation of believers to the next, or have contemporaneous accounts about the primary participants (as say Josephus was for the some of the NT personalities). Either the Book of Mormon is precisely what Joseph Smith claimed it was, or it is a fraud. If it is a fraud, then the entire LDS church (and its offshoots) collapses like a house of cards. However, if the Book of Mormon is in fact truly an account of ancient Americans and was translated by the power of God by Joseph Smith the Prophet, then everything it teaches is true: Jesus is the Savior of the world, the testimony of the Bible is corroborated, and the LDS church is the only church on the face of the Earth which is founded by God. The Book of Mormon also claims to be an authentic record of people on the American continent thousands of years ago. Hence to the degree that it makes testable statements, we can evaluate the book from a scientific perspective. To be clear, I don’t ever expect evidence of the Book of Mormon to convert someone to my faith by itself (and indeed, I wouldn’t want it to). However, the role I (and **genie** , and many other LDS) try to play in these discussions is to correct erroneous ideas about the LDS church and the Book of Mormon, to remove artificial impediments to pursuing spiritual truth. It is a side benefit that my testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the LDS church has increased, and in some cases, people who would otherwise have ignored the Book of Mormon take an interest precisely because of the many criticisms of it (many of which criticisms have been proven incorrect as has been detailed in this thread so far). > [@](#): > > OK, why did the angel take the plates away, how did these people know how to translate this Egyptian language, if god or whoever wanted to communicate some message to this dude, why didn’t he do it in English–surely god knows how to speak english, now doesn’t he? Second question first: Of course God knows how to speak English. Joseph Smith wrote of several occasions in which heavenly visitors spoke to him in English. As to the motivation of the angel Moroni, I don’t believe we’ve been told why the plates were returned to him. I could speculate–one practical reason is that Joseph had to move the plates and hide them from people who were seeking them out for the value of the metal. Once the translation of the plates was done, there was no need for Joseph to have them any more, hence Moroni took them for safe keeping. > [@](#): > > But regardless, you say that every Mormon is taught from a young age to pray and ask for these answers…so these people are already Mormon, so they already believe in all this stuff, so how can we trust in the answers they are hearing when they aren’t even asking them until after they have become indoctrinated in the religion? Of course, not every Mormon remains in the church (witness several examples in this very thread), and we currently are baptizing [about 300,000 converts](http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-353-9,00.html) every year. I know from personal experience myself and from that of others that answers to prayer are not simply conditioning. Especially when I’m surprised by an answer to prayer. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I personally find it hard to believe that Joseph Smith (a poor and uneducated farm laborer) could have come up with about 40 pounds of gold, hammered it into thin leaves, inscribed words on it in an untranslateable foreign language, shown it to 11 other people but not his wife, and then made it disappear. There are simpler explanations if you want to go for the hoax opinion (though I don’t find them particularly compelling, either). > > Well I personally find that easier to believe than the story that an angel appreared and gave him these tablets and then took them away again. Why would it be so hard to believe someone could undertake this hoax? I suggest you take a look at some of the links that **genie** has posted in the thread, and you may begin to get an answer. Or for a shortcut, [just read this page](http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml). In the last 150+ years, archaeologists have acquired massive information about Mesoamerica compared to what people in Joseph Smith’s day knew. If the book were a hoax, you would expect more and more errors in the Book of Mormon to become apparent, wouldn’t you? Instead, we find more and more evidences that the culture, technology and language of the Book of Mormon peoples matches modern scholarship. Go to the page we’ve linked to and read how many points in the Book of Mormon were considered laughable by scholars of Joseph Smith’s day but know are commonly accepted fact. Basically, if Joseph Smith were a fraud, he would have had to have been a prophet as well in order to get the Book of Mormon keep agreeing with new finds. So which is it? Was he a prophet, or a prophet? 🙂 Now, additionally you’re inquiring about the motivations of the angel again. Why didn’t Moroni leave the plates behind? Indeed, why doesn’t Jesus appear to us all right now in glory and grandeur and make his point once and for all? Because he doesn’t work that way. The goal is not to prove himself, but rather to provide enough motivation for us to seek him out and then choose to be like him rather than unlike him. (More discussion of this principle would be best suited to another thread–I’d be happy to participate if you’d like to start it up.) > [@](#): > > How do we know for sure it was real gold? Was it tested? How do we know what the language was, what if it were just made-up gibberish? Were these 11 witnesses experts in ancient languages? And if the language was “untranslateable,” then how did he translate it? Indeed, we don’t know that it was real gold. It is described as “having the appearance of gold”. In my opinion, it was most likely an alloy and not pure gold. As far as linguistic scholars go, please reread my post about Martin Harris’ visit to a scholar and the resulting outcome. The eleven witnesses were not linguistic scholars, but they were witnesses of the book as an object, and in the case of the first three were witnesses of the angel and the voice of God as well. > [@](#): > > Misinformation abounds because of this air of secrecy surrounding church “rituals.” So can I ask you, as a person in the know, about some of the secret rituals that take place behind closed doors of the temple and secret symbols and such? It’s stuff like that that strengthens my skepticism. I have gone out of my way to try to find out more information about this religion, and hit walls due to the secrecy. The only thing we don’t talk about are the details about the temple ceremony. In all the writings and teachings of the church, the text of the temple ceremony make up a pathetically small portion. We consider it sacred and faithful members will not discuss it in detail. Why would knowledge of the minutiae of the temple somehow decrease your skepticism? Are you that curious about my underwear? (And if you are, don’t you find that a bit odd?) Do you yourself have experiences or information you don’t hand out freely to everyone? Surely you have good reasoning for doing so–why do think we’re any different? Furthermore, it has been documented in this very thread that misinformation abounds _even in the face of truth which proves that misinformation_. Even on a forum which has the mantra: “fighting ignorance since 1973”. Why would you expect things to go any differently with respect to LDS temple ordinances. Those who choose to believe lies will continue to believe them irrespective of the truth. Those who will dismiss the evidences of the Book of Mormon out of hand while making archaeological/historical objections to the Book of Mormon won’t see truth if it bit them on the nose, unless they choose to change their lives. And so it goes…(almost to page 5 now and we’re still following the same script) ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/172 "2003-11-26T08:32:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Glory \* > So…God, THE GOD, is just some schlump from another “world” that achieved a high level of salvation and then populated our world with his “children.” As **genie** pointed out, we don’t know much about that at all. Any discussion about the point is pretty much rampant speculation. I believe that God was once a mortal as I am now. However, why do you see that as such a sticking point? After understanding the doctrine of deification, I personally could never believe in a God who would _not_ offer everything he has to his children. And on a related note, was Jesus “just some schlump”? > [@](#): > > I can see why the Church of Latter Day Saints is spreading so fast, who wouldn’t like to be God in the next life? The same people who don’t want to take God’s advice about how to be happy in this one. > [@](#): > > I just want to clarify, if you’re a 16 year old kid and you get hit by a bus before you can get married and have kids, you’re denied the highest level of heaven? No. Unlike some religions, we don’t believe that those who never had the opportunity to receive saving ordinances in mortality will be denied blessings solely because of that. [See here](http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/137/7-9) for LDS scripture on the topic. > [@](#): > > What if you’re a married couple who can’t have children due to infertility, are you denied the highest level of heaven? Who said anything about a requirement to have children? > [@](#): > > What if you’re married and your spouse dies and you remarry, do you have more than one husband/wife in the next life? Another topic that we don’t know much about. While the doctrine of plural marriages is accepted, it was only practiced with a husband with multiple wives (polygyny). There is nothing (AFAIK) revealed about poyandry (a woman with multiple husbands). So at least in the case where one man is sealed in the temple to a second wife after being widowed, we would expect both women to be sealed to him in the afterlife as well. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/173 "2003-11-26T08:54:34Z")
> [@](#): > > As to the motivation of the angel Moroni, I don’t believe we’ve been told why the plates were returned to him. I could speculate–one practical reason is that Joseph had to move the plates and hide them from people who were seeking them out for the value of the metal. Once the translation of the plates was done, there was no need for Joseph to have them any more, hence Moroni took them for safe keeping. If I recall my Sunday school correctly, only two-thirds of the plates were translated, and the rest were sealed. We weren’t ready for them, or something. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/174 "2003-11-26T09:27:41Z")
**EMARKP** > [@](#): > > Either the Book of Mormon is precisely what Joseph Smith claimed it was, or it is a fraud. If it is a fraud, then the entire LDS church (and its offshoots) collapses like a house of cards. However, if the Book of Mormon is in fact truly an account of ancient Americans and was translated by the power of God by Joseph Smith the Prophet, then everything it teaches is true: Jesus is the Savior of the world, the testimony of the Bible is corroborated, and the LDS church is the only church on the face of the Earth which is founded by God. So does the cornerstone (basis) of your church rest solely on the detailed account of Joseph Smith? Wouldn’t God still be part of it even if JS turned out to be a fraud? I was Mormon for three years and although the people were wonderful, it just wasn’t right for me. I fully respect everyone’s right to their beliefs. What puzzles me is the your certainty that LDS is the only church founded by God. Obviously yours isn’t the only religion that feels that way and they puzzle me too. Why are all these religions sure theirs is the only right one, as opposed to just accepting that God reveals himself and inspires people in different ways? Religions vary so much from culture to culture. Why would God pick Americans vs. Chinese, etc. It just doesn’t make sense to think that God picked only a few people. It makes more sense to think that he was the inspiration behind all religion and each is just interpreting it different. I always understood that we were God’s “church”. Not a building or a denomination. Would God offer everything he had to only part of his children? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/175 "2003-11-26T16:27:31Z")
**Genie** , thank you for the links, but Jeff Lindsay’s LDS apologetics site is not exactly authoritative in regard to scientific verification of the BoM. (and yes, I read the articles.) **Archeology** > [@](#): > > Of the surviving Maya area writings, six distinct scripts have been identified, and scholars are only in the early stages of deciphering two or three of them. We may know what some ancient cities were called by their inhabitants at the time of Cortez, but do we know anything concrete about the era 600 B.C. to 400 A.D.? Do we know the place names that the ancients used? Do we know any of the names of those people - as they called themselves, not as the later Aztecs or Mayans called them? The Book of Mormon is from the ancient New World. The problem is not that nothing correlates with the Book of Mormon, the problem is that we still know almost nothing about the time period covered by the Book of Mormon. For one thing, a great deal is known about Central American cultures. Here is a [timeline](http://weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/arch/mexchron.html) provided by the same Michael Coe quoted out of context in the Lindsay article. Note no mention of Jews arriving in the area. Moreover, the whole idea of the family of Lehi being just one group out of many in Central America seems to be contradicted by the BoM itself: > [@](#): > > II Nephi 1:6-8 > Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord. > Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever. > And behold, \*\*it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. \*\* (Bolding mine) Moreover, Lindsay is not strictly honest in his discussion. For example, he claims that the May 19, 2003 BBC News article presents evidence for a completely unknown ancient civilization. Yet when you read the article, you find that archeologists merely found a precursor to the Maya classic era. That’s like saying that Mount Vernon is a relic from a completely different civilization. Moreover, It seems Lindsay is one of those who has his conclusion and is determined to fit the evidence to support it, based on this quote: > [@](#): > > Whether we’re talking about Mesoamerica or the Middle East, the message of God to New World prophets was the same as His message to those in the Old World. There are many evidences for the Book of Mormon, though they are meaningless without some faith, for faith must come before the miracle. Signs did not convert people, and Christ condemned those who asked for miracles and signs in order to believe. He required faith first, and then he would confirm their faith. Again, we walk by faith, not by sight. My suggestion: examine the text itself to ascertain its authenticity. I’d rather see if the science leads us to validate the BoM than say the BoM is validated by faith and evidence doesn’t really matter. **Scimitars** The scimitar question comes the use of the word “cimeter” (Mosiah 9:16, Enos 1:20) which seems to have been a misspelling of the word “scimitar” by Joseph Smith that continues to be propagated in subsequent editions of the BoM. In any event, there is no evidence for swords, “cimeters,” or any metal weapons used by Mesoamericans, who favored clubs made of stone or wood, studded with flakes of obsidian. Your article does nothing to contradict that. **Barley** > [@](#): > > Research on this matter supports two possible explanations. First, the terms barley and wheat, as used in the Book of Mormon, may refer to certain other New World crop plants that were given Old World designations; and second, the terms may refer to genuine varieties of New World barley and wheat. The first explanation is laughable, and the second is doubtful. I mean, 3 articles between 1983-1985 and nothing else in 20 years? Is there any additional verification? Is _Hordeum pusillum_ similar in appearance to Old word _hordeum_ species? In any event, that still does not explain the other anachronisms in the BoM, like quoting NT authors centuries before their works were written or the reference to “A Bible!” in II Nephi. And the DNA link is so scattered in focus and so poorly argued that it would be a waste of bandwidth to discuss it. An example: > [@](#): > > Every Native American may literally be a descendent of Abraham and even Lehi, but a vast number of other ancient ancestors who also contributed their genes may make it difficult to find the remnants of Semitic DNA. This does not destroy the plausibility of the Book of Mormon, when fairly and accurately read. He is not arguing evidence but faith. > [@](#): > > More egregious is the assumption of Murphy and others that the Book of Mormon teaches that the New World was settled only by Hebrews and their descendants–a claim that the Book of Mormon definitely does not make. That misconception has been rejected for decades by some LDS leaders and scholars, though it has still become part of popular LDS culture. It is this popular misunderstanding that Murphy mistakes for the teachings of the text itself–a sign of poor scholarship, as far as I am concerned. Murphy seems to think that evidence of dominant (but not necessarily exclusive) Asian origins for Native Americans rules out the Book of Mormon. This is a serious error on his part. I already quoted the relevant verses that indicate that Lehi and his family were the only people on the continent. Despite the LDS’s disavowal of the plain meaning of these verses, Smith obviously meant his book to be a tale of all the inhabitants of the Americas, not just the record of a small family group. > [@](#): > > Go to the page we’ve linked to and read how many points in the Book of Mormon were considered laughable by scholars of Joseph Smith’s day but know are commonly accepted fact. You need to read more than Jeff Linday and FARMS because they only present pro-Mormon propaganda. Linday distorts his sources and FARMS is the ICR of Mesoamerican archeology. No reputable non-LDS archaeologist supports the BoM in any way. Besides as the Mormon kid said on last week’s_South Park_, it doesn;t really mater if the BoM is true or if Joseph Smith was really a prophet, because the church teaches love of family, loyalty to country, and personal morality, and how can anyone really object to that? Now that I’ve read your links, perhaps you’ll read [mine](http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/annotated/topics.shtm). [Religious tolerance.org](http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_migr.htm) [Mesoweb](http://www.mesoweb.com), to show what _real_ Mesoamerican cultures look like And this [article](http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html) might prove interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glory)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/176 "2003-11-26T16:39:10Z")
> [@](#): > > So at least in the case where one man is sealed in the temple to a second wife after being widowed, we would expect both women to be sealed to him in the afterlife as well. How nice for men. Your response pretty much summed up my two “sticking” points with Mormonism. 1. God was once mortal. If God was once a fallible mortal, it explains why this world is so messed up. 2. Women get the shaft. I could never accept any religion where women were not exact equals with men in every way (holding leadership positions in the church, an equal chance to have multiple spouses in the afterlife, etc. etc). ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/177 "2003-11-26T16:39:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > If I recall my Sunday school correctly, only two-thirds of the plates were translated, and the rest were sealed. We weren’t ready for them, or something. There are a few accounts of the sealed portion’s size. The current consensus is that it was 2/3–hence the translated portion (including the missing 116 pages) was 1/3 of the plates. Yes, we expect to receive the sealed portion some time in the future, but the standard is [set pretty high for that](http://scriptures.lds.org/ether/4/4-7#3). This is likely an additional reason the plates were taken away for the time being, but we haven’t been told that. ---
**Author:** ![Anal\_Scurvy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c57346/32.png) [@Anal\_Scurvy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anal_Scurvy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/178 "2003-11-26T16:59:20Z")
I knew a kid who went door-to-door in the Mormon van. I don’t know who would be converted by a pudgy guy passing out on their stoop, but he was accepted. Or so he told us, the day he “quit” his job and also the day before he was going to get fired for dopey-ness (dopiness?). We called him Droopy Dog, but not to his face, because it usually had a pillow on it. Unless it was the lunch break. I didn’t even know there was a mormon van that went door to door. I hope they got as sick of him as we did. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/179 "2003-11-26T17:10:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anal Scurvy \* > \*\*I knew a kid who went door-to-door in the Mormon van. I don’t know who would be converted by a pudgy guy passing out on their stoop, but he was accepted. Or so he told us, the day he “quit” his job and also the day before he was going to get fired for dopey-ness (dopiness?). We called him Droopy Dog, but not to his face, because it usually had a pillow on it. Unless it was the lunch break. > > I didn’t even know there was a mormon van that went door to door. I hope they got as sick of him as we did. \*\* The dude was lying. Mormons on mission don;t drive, they walk or ride bikes, they are always in paisrs, and they have to be in good standing with the church, not some dude they picked up off the street. One thing I will say about the LDS, they must select for good genetics because all the LDS boys (yes, I know they’re called “elders” but they’re boys to me) are hot. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578/180 "2003-11-26T17:16:39Z")
**gobear** : Gee, nobody ever called _me_ “hot” when I was on a mission… ☹ For the record, some missionaries do indeed drive. I served in a rural part of the US teaching in Spanish to immigrant workers. Sometimes we had to drive 30-40 miles in a day just to visit 3 or 4 families. So yes, we were given use of a car. Zone Leaders and assistants to the Mission President also had cars. And then there was the big brown van that was used (in our mission, at least) to move the missionaries around when they got transferred from one area within the mission to another. I’m just saying, is all… Barry [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/south-park-mormons/214578.md?page=10)