# Southern Accent Hypothesis and Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 26, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168 "2012-05-26T14:23:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/61 "2012-05-30T13:41:59Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Here is a BBC article that references the project, which was apparently headed by the linguist David Crystal: > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/magazine/4694993.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4694993.stm) > > Note the reference to people from North Carolina. > > I don’t remember in which publication I first read of the project, and I don’t have access to English periodical literature in Moscow (certainly not like I did in the States or Canada). Crystal has a website (and there are other sites that reference him), but a cursory glance shows a search for the project might take some time. OK, but I’m just not buying this one-off line in the story: > [@](#): > > They say their accents are somewhere between Australian, Cornish, Irish and Scottish, with a dash of Yorkshire - yet bizarrely, completely intelligible if you happen to come from North Carolina. North Carolinians don’t pronounce “voice” like “vice” or “room” like “rome”. I suspect an over-zealous reporter took something someone said about the accents having echos in regional NC dialects and extrapolated that to “completely intelligible”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/62 "2012-05-30T13:59:15Z")
> [@MacLir](#): > > Part of that is a difference in “manners.” Using a customer / clerk interaction as an example, very broadly, a northern customer will initiate the transaction by stating what they want; the northern clerk will drop what they are doing to serve them. For southerners, the customer will wait to be greeted, and the clerk will finish their current action and greet the customer. > > The upshot of this, if you follow the two “mixed” interactions, is that to the southerner, the northerner comes off as rude and pushy, and to the northerner, the southerner seems slow and stupid. Wow, that’s fascinating. I had no idea regarding this difference. As a northerner, I would find it rude for the shop clerk to finish what he’s doing before attending to me. In the culture I grew up with, it’s rude to keep a customer waiting. > [@terentii](#): > > Here is a BBC article that references the project, which was apparently headed by the linguist David Crystal: > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/magazine/4694993.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4694993.stm) > > Note the reference to people from North Carolina. > > I don’t remember in which publication I first read of the project, and I don’t have access to English periodical literature in Moscow (certainly not like I did in the States or Canada). Crystal has a website (and there are other sites that reference him), but a cursory glance shows a search for the project might take some time. I have read a lot of things by David Crystal and I would be very surprised if he had said anything close to there being an American accent that preserved Shakespeare’s English. In fact, that kind of statement is well known as an urban legend. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/63 "2012-05-30T14:56:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I have read a lot of things by David Crystal and I would be very surprised if he had said anything close to there being an American accent that preserved Shakespeare’s English. In fact, that kind of statement is well known as an urban legend. Wouldn’t that actually be a “rural legend”? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/64 "2012-05-30T14:59:52Z")
True ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/65 "2012-05-30T16:30:14Z")
I can’t be arsed to read through the whole thread, but I feel obliged to point out that **there is no one, single, homogeneous “Southern” accent!** I’m originally from east Tennessee, so the dialect I spoke growing up is what’s known as [Appalachian English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_English). (Being educated now, in most circumstances, and certainly in professional contexts, I speak the “accentless” [Standard American English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_American_English).) Folks from the Piedmont and Plantation Crescent sound funny to me. Creole English sounds funny to me. Mississippi River Delta English sounds funny to me. Even some northern Florida accents sound funny to me. But folk from east TN, southwestern VA, western NC, and northern GA, all sound normal to me. Hollywood screenwriters in particular are really bad at not recognizing the diversity of Southern American English accents and dialects. That is all. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/66 "2012-05-30T16:41:56Z")
> [@Cyningablod](#): > > Hollywood screenwriters in particular are really bad at not recognizing the diversity of Southern American English accents and dialects. 1. Screenwriters don’t really have anything to do with actors’ accents. That’s more an issue of what actors and directors are able to come up with. 2. To be fair, Hollywood doesn’t really do a good job with accents in any setting. Southern accents aren’t really being singled out for neglect. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/67 "2012-05-30T17:42:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I suspect an over-zealous reporter took something someone said about the accents having echos in regional NC dialects and extrapolated that to “completely intelligible”. Absolutely. Not for the first time, I find myself pointing out on the SDMB that Crystal’s book on his collaboration with the Globe - _Pronouncing Shakespeare_ (Cambridge University Press, 2005) - specifically repudiates the idea that any modern accents sound much like those in early-modern England. This is what he says about the feedback from the original pronunciation production of _Romeo and Juliet_ in 2004. > [@](#): > > …one of the most noticeable features of the talkback sessions after the OP [original pronunciation] performances was the way people associated EME [early modern English] with an accent they knew. Everyone felt at home with it, but for different reasons. The conclusion is obvious: _no_ modern accent is identical with EME. All share some features, for the simple reason that we are talking about an accent (more precisely, a group of accents) which is the ancestor of the accents we hear in English today. And not just British English, but English all over the world…No modern accent has miraculously preserved all of Shakespeare’s pronunciation. To think otherwise is one of the biggest linguistic fallacies of modern times. And yet it is surprising how widespread is the belief that Real Elizabethan English is alive and well, tucked away in a remote valley somewhere in Virginia - or Warwickshire. (pp. 92-4) (emphasis in the original) ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/68 "2012-05-30T18:56:05Z")
> [@Cyningablod](#): > > **I can’t be arsed to read through the whole thread** (bolding mine), but I feel obliged to point out that **there is no one, single, homogeneous “Southern” accent!** (bolding theirs) Yeah we sort of already covered that, a few times. Thanks for your contribution. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/69 "2012-05-30T20:26:08Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Here is a BBC article that references the project, which was apparently headed by the linguist David Crystal: > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/magazine/4694993.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4694993.stm) Some problems with that article: \*\* > [@](#): > > \*\*Ever been baffled by the bard? Vexed by his verse? Or perplexed by his puns? London’s Globe theatre thinks it has the answer: perform Shakespeare’s plays in Shakespeare’s dialect. \*\* \*\* > [@](#): > > For example, the word “voice” is pronounced the same as “vice”, “reason” as “raisin”, “room” as “Rome”, “one” as “own” - breathing new life into Shakespeare’s rhyming and punning. I can’t imagine how pronouncing words funny - _voice_ as “vice”, for example - will help make the language more _clear._ Sure, it may help the puns stand out better, and may fix some rhymes, but making the text intelligible? I listed to the audio sample. I find that pacing and emphasis goes a lot farther toward clarity than the variance in pronunciation shown. Yeah, the “Shakespearean English” had a bit more edge and lilt than the contemporary British accent the speaker used, but both were reasonably clear, and suffered from the same problems of the reader’s pacing and emphasis. E.g., the first line stated is “Why then will I no more” In both versions, it is flat, without emphasis. But from the play _[Troilus and Cressida](http://www.rhymezone.com/r/gwic.cgi?Word=_&Path=shakespeare/comedies/troilusandcressida/iv_v//)_, that line should be conveying meaning. Hector and Ajax are engaged in a fight, and then the fight is stopped. Diomedes tells them they should stop fighting (“no more”). Ajax states that he is still ready to fight. Hector then begins his paragragh to explain why they shouldn’t be fighting. His line is to say “why I will stop fighting”. Diomedes: As Hector pleases. Hector: Why, then I will no more. There’s a pause annoted by a comma after the “Why”, which the reader runs right over. In both dialects. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/70 "2012-06-01T08:09:14Z")
I did **not** cite that article as my source. Rather, I stated that it _referenced_ the study I read (or possibly read of) elsewhere. If I can find the time, I’ll look for the original work when I get back to Canada this summer. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/71 "2012-06-01T13:32:51Z")
terentii, the BBC news story you linked to doesn’t reference any study. It just quotes, possibly inaccurately, a number of opinions about Shakespeare’s original pronunciation. So have a nice time in Canada, but until you return we’ve got nothing to back up your claim. On the other hand, we’ve got references like the one I linked to in my post that deny that Shakespeare spoke Appalachian English. Another such reference is a section of the book _Word Myths_ by David Wilton which also debunks this myth. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/72 "2012-06-01T14:07:46Z")
I admit my knowledge of Southern American accents only goes as far as a few people I’ve met and those I’ve seen on the telly, but to compare them to a British accent (be it English, Irish Scottish or Welsh) seems to be laughable and very confusing. Yes, the British accent may have changed in the centuries that proceeded the very first settlers to build towns in the US, but we have recorded examples of British accents from Edison’s day and none have ever been close to those which I’ve heard in my, admittedly limited, experience. I do, though, hear an Irish influence in some Boston and New York deliveries (on screen, I might add) and certainly a home counties influence in some accents on the east coast of the US, so I can’t imagine I’m deaf to accents at all. On second thoughts, there is a drift in some Scottish (Glaswegian, for example) and southern Irish accents which are similar to those I’ve heard from the South which, over time, could have developed into a Louisianian or Mississippian voice but the clipped, efficient and Franco/Germanic tone of SE England I don’t believe has any relation to those. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/73 "2012-06-02T03:37:33Z")
I’m baffled as to why people waste their time posting myths that they read or heard so long ago that they don’t even remember the source of them, but they can’t be bothered to read a good book on the subject which could clear up their misunderstandings very quickly. There are at least two fairly short books written at a level suitable for pretty much any adult (or any child who’s a good reader) that address most of the standard myths about language - _Word Myths_ by David Wilton and _Language Myths_, edited by Laurie Bauer and Peter Trudgill. Reading them will be a much better use of your time than spending it posting some half-remembered notions about language that you heard years ago. ---
**Author:** ![supery00n](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@supery00n](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supery00n)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/74 "2012-06-02T03:44:57Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I’m baffled as to why people waste their time posting myths that they read or heard so long ago that they don’t even remember the source of them, but they can’t be bothered to read a good book on the subject which could clear up their misunderstandings very quickly. There are at least two fairly short books written at a level suitable for pretty much any adult (or any child who’s a good reader) that address most of the standard myths about language - _Word Myths_ by David Wilton and _Language Myths_, edited by Laurie Bauer and Peter Trudgill. Reading them will be a much better use of your time than spending it posting some half-remembered notions about language that you heard years ago. Was this referring to my OP or the Shakespeare-Appalachian hypothesis (or something else?) I’ll check that book out anyhow when I have time. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/75 "2012-06-02T03:51:32Z")
No, if it was referring to anyone in particular, it was referring to terentii. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/76 "2012-06-03T01:57:48Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Personally, I associate the New York accent with someone who is intelligent, maybe even discerning and sophisticated, but who never bothered to class it up. Now imagine that person replicated into a 2nd, or 3rd, or nth generation. New Yawk is the only speech in the US which is associated with intelligence and upward mobility that doesn’t _sound_ like it. “Jew, want some coffee?” I heard you say that. Don’t deny it. ---
**Author:** ![cynyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@cynyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cynyc)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/77 "2012-06-03T03:48:07Z")
Aw man. Lost my post about Scotland. So here’s the punchline: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/4LJw6PAi5Q8/hqdefault.jpg "Snatch - Mickey Almighty Speaks Pikey") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LJw6PAi5Q8) ---
**Author:** ![Rampant\_Coypu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/439d5e/32.png) [@Rampant\_Coypu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rampant_Coypu)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/78 "2012-06-03T03:48:09Z")
There is no such thing as a Southern accent. There is a type of Standard American English more common in the urban areas of the South. Its twangy in Dallas, choppy and brisk in Houston, stereotypically Southern in Atlanta, non-rhotic in coastal Georgia (the last place the Southern non-rhotic accents survive, round voweled in North Carolina, round vowels plus stretched lips in Virginia, and extreme round vowels in Maryland. Other than this varied urban accent there is no Southern accent. Just many local variations that have their own histories. New Orleans “yat” is the most obvious example. And you also have to remember that so-called “Ebonics” is not very distinct from Southern accents. And everyone must understand that “y’all” is the second person plural gender neutral pronoun English needs so badly. ---
**Author:** ![Rescue31](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Rescue31](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rescue31)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/79 "2012-06-03T04:05:16Z")
> [@Pitter\_Patter](#): > > It is an anomaly for sure, but the natives of Ocracoke Island, NC and surrounding areas speak a very strange dialect, at least to the rest of us North Carolinians. Isolation must surely play a major part in that. I’ve traveled quite a bit and have found the accent of the NC Outer Banks (and Eastern Virginia) closer to any British English dialect than any other American accent I have heard. I have noticed a similar accent in parts of Eastern Canada as well. To be sure, I’m no expert in the field, so I’m just sharing personal experience. In my opinion, the OB accent is very close to what Edward Teach (Blackbeard) and his fellow pirates may have sounded like. ---
**Author:** ![supery00n](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@supery00n](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supery00n)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168/80 "2012-06-03T15:15:49Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I think it’s odd that people often think that the British accent doesn’t survive unchanged in the Americas. Around Ocracoke, it pretty much _does_. > > I think that’s due to the fact that the whites in that area had so little contact with non-white people for so long. > > But yes, I think the fact that the Ocracoke Island area (including Scotland Neck and surrounding areas) has an almost pure British accent is _extremely_ strong evidence that the Southern Accent is actually different from British English largely because of African and Native American influences. _Extremely_ strong, bordering on absolute proof, absent careful linguistic analysis. Woah, that’s rather extreme. =) I think that you’re the only person who really supported my OP, to a much stronger level than I actually do. It was really just a hunch for me… I’ve read through the posts and something came to my mind (someone mentioned it in a post somewhere) - What about French and Spanish influences? Is the Southern accent prevalent in areas of the South where French and Spanish influences are not very significant, such as Tennessee (I presume)? And with respect to the Native American contributions, were there more Native Americans living in the South during the early colonial period prior to the American Revolution, more African-Americans, or more French and Spanish speakers? I believe that accent acquisition is inseparable from language acquisition in and of itself, and thus accents develop predominantly when an individual’s primary language is acquired (late infancy/early childhood). How can the contributions of French and Spanish languages be compared and contrasted with those of African-Americans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-accent-hypothesis-and-question/623168.md?page=5)