# Southern Irishmen in Brit Army post-1922 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 2, 2008, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666 "2008-04-02T13:05:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/21 "2008-04-03T15:34:52Z")
Because I remember reading about an Republic citizen a WWII vet and a VC winner to boot, who was hounded out of Ireland by the IRA. > **[Marcus Ervine-Andrews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Marcus_Ervine-Andrews)** > > Lieutenant-Colonel Harold Marcus Ervine-Andrews, VC (29 July 1911 – 30 March 1995) was a British Army officer and an Irish recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest award for gallantry that can be awarded to British and the Commonwealth forces, for his actions during the Second World War. > Marcus Ervine-Andrews was born in Keadue, County Cavan, Ireland, on 29 July 1911, the son of a bank manager. He was educated by the Jesuits at Stonyhurst College, Lancashire, one of seven recipients of t... ---
**Author:** ![corsair1d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71c47a/32.png) [@corsair1d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corsair1d)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/22 "2008-04-03T16:14:28Z")
That was unusual I’d say. But along the border the IRA were more common and active. Irishmen who served in WW2 weren’t exactly feted when they got home but I don’t thnk there was much intimidation. I remember my friend’s Grandad who served in both wars in the British army. Ending up an as an RSM in the Ox and Bucks. We loved his stories and he taught us foot drill. He lived happily literally across the road from an old IRA man from the 1920s who still had his old rifle in the attic. :eek: It could be an advantage to be an ex-serviceman. I also remember my Father told me of the unusual recruitment policies of the English manager of the firm he worked for in Dublin. First preference for employees were for Protestant ex servicemen, then Catholic ex servicemen, then protestants and finally Catholics. This was the 1950s in Dublin where many of the old firms and businesses were still dominated by Protestants and Anglo Irish. Guinness for example only appointed their first Irish Catholic manager in the 1960s. So it could work both ways. I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/23 "2008-04-03T16:36:25Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] I dont want to get into the whole" this army is better then that army thing"but the difference in the standard of training,discipline and aggression is of a completely different order between the Irish army and the British army and part of the reason Paddys wanted to serve in the Brit.Army instead of the Irish. [/QUOTE] With all due respect, please do not refer to Irish people as “paddy’s”. it’s insulting no matter how you meant it. The Irish Army has nothing on the British army. The British army is a modern army almost without peer. The Irish Army is a small, purely defensive force. Moreorver, the Irish Army is fairly “clannish” insofar as you really need to know someone (family member etc.) to get in and advance. Probably not the place you’d want to be if you are seeking a serious military career. My Uncle (in-law) served in the British army for nearly 30 years. He was genuinely circumspect when visiting us on the NorthSide of Dublin. He was threatned several times with one of those threats being quasi-legitimate (they set fire to his rented car). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/24 "2008-04-03T18:07:51Z")
What I can make out. i) lots of Republic citizens serve, and its seems all the Irish on this threadfknow someone personally who was in the British forces. ii) the experiences during the troubles seem to vary. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/25 "2008-04-03T19:59:31Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] With all due respect, please do not refer to Irish people as “paddy’s”. it’s insulting no matter how you meant it. [/QUOTE] It’s no more offensive than “Jock” in the right circumstances. Perhaps it’s always a grievous insult in Chicago, Illinois, USA. Or perhaps you were objecting to the misplaced apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/26 "2008-04-03T20:16:35Z")
[QUOTE=Struan] It’s no more offensive than “Jock” in the right circumstances. Perhaps it’s always a grievous insult in Chicago, Illinois, USA. Or perhaps you were objecting to the misplaced apostrophe. [/QUOTE] Agreed. Even ‘plastic paddy’ is something I might not take offence to, depending on the context. Despite being one 😃 [QUOTE=AK84] its seems all the Irish on this threadfknow someone personally who was in the British forces. [/QUOTE] Careful with such assumptions. People are more likely to be posting if they’ve got a story to tell. What would be interesting to see, although probably impossible, would be a geographic breakdown of the origin within Ireland of British army volunteers. My family, at least at that time, were mostly Donegal-based, and for various reasons I can’t imagine many people they knew would have been tempted. ---
**Author:** ![corsair1d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71c47a/32.png) [@corsair1d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corsair1d)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/27 "2008-04-03T20:32:53Z")
I don’t find ‘Paddy’ offensive. But it’s all about context. Irishmen in the British forces were often saddled with the nickname. Brendan ‘Paddy’ Finucance, RAF fighter pilot, Blair ‘Paddy’ Mayne of the SAS even ‘Paddy’ Ashdown of the Liberal party who wasn’t even Irish but grew up partly in NI. Merely an unimaginative nickname. Some people are entirely thin skinned about stuff like that. In practice these days you are more likely to hear Irish people refer to themselves as Paddies particularly when abroad. The reality is that there are still quite a lot Irish called Patrick. It’s a cliche. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/28 "2008-04-03T20:45:51Z")
[QUOTE=Struan] It’s no more offensive than “Jock” in the right circumstances. Perhaps it’s always a grievous insult in Chicago, Illinois, USA. Or perhaps you were objecting to the misplaced apostrophe. [/QUOTE] I disagree and (if you bothered to read my post), I’m from Dublin. Born and raised in Dublin but who currently happens to live in Chicago, Illinois. Paddy, when used by an English person is normally insulting. In the current context it’s insulting. Then again, you appear to be from Scotland which is just England-lite so of course jock won’t be insulting to you (of course, you really don’t consider jock to carry the same conotation as paddy). Maybe that’s just how we see it in Chicago, Illinois, USA. In context, calling someone named Patrick, Paddy makes sense. In my experience, most Irish people do not call themselves or others paddies (unless making a point about poor behaviour). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/29 "2008-04-03T20:54:36Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] Maybe that’s just how we see it in Chicago, Illinois, USA. [/QUOTE] Maybe. Or maybe you’re just a bit too willing to be insulted. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/30 "2008-04-03T21:01:54Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] I disagree and (if you bothered to read my post), I’m from Dublin. Born and raised in Dublin but who currently happens to live in Chicago, Illinois. Paddy, when used by an English person is normally insulting. In the current context it’s insulting. Then again, you appear to be from Scotland which is just England-lite so of course jock won’t be insulting to you (of course, you really don’t consider jock to carry the same conotation as paddy). Maybe that’s just how we see it in Chicago, Illinois, USA. In context, calling someone named Patrick, Paddy makes sense. In my experience, most Irish people do not call themselves or others paddies (unless making a point about poor behaviour). [/QUOTE] Your original assertion was: > [@](#): > > With all due respect, please do not refer to Irish people as “paddy’s”. it’s insulting no matter how you meant it. So, you’ve changed your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/31 "2008-04-03T21:06:15Z")
[QUOTE=Struan] So, you’ve changed your mind? [/QUOTE] Yep. I believe that’s allowed. Also, I was refering to that particular post. I think a lot of Irish people would be insulted by the context in which is was used in this thread. > [@](#): > > Maybe. Or maybe you’re just a bit too willing to be insulted. I’m thick skinned and I don’t look to find reason to be insulted. In the context in which it was used, it was demeaning (intentionally or, more likely, unintentionally). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/32 "2008-04-03T21:15:49Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] I’m thick skinned and I don’t look to find reason to be insulted. In the context in which it was used, it was demeaning (intentionally or, more likely, unintentionally). [/QUOTE] Absolute nonsense. Let’s look at the statement again: [QUOTE=Lust4Life] I dont want to get into the whole" this army is better then that army thing"but the difference in the standard of training,discipline and aggression is of a completely different order between the Irish army and the British army and part of the reason Paddys wanted to serve in the Brit.Army instead of the Irish. [/QUOTE] ‘Despite not wanting to say outright that the British army is simply better, there’s bloody obvious reasons why a would-be soldier would prefer it over the Irish.’ To me, this sounds like a big complement to those soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/33 "2008-04-03T21:25:01Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] Absolute nonsense. Let’s look at the statement again: ‘Despite not wanting to say outright that the British army is simply better, there’s bloody obvious reasons why a would-be soldier would prefer it over the Irish.’ To me, this sounds like a big complement to those soldiers. [/QUOTE] You’ve misread my response. I entirely agreed with the poster that the British army is not just simply better, but a lot better than the Irish army. You’d find very few who would argue otherwise. I agree with the notion that those who want a more adventerous military career would choose the British army over the Irish one. The issue I had was with the general use of the word ‘paddy’. It’s impolite at best and insulting at worst in the context that it was used. That is, the word paddy can be seen as a pejorative when used by an English person. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/34 "2008-04-03T22:15:40Z")
[QUOTE=GorillaMan] My family, at least at that time, were mostly Donegal-based, and for various reasons I can’t imagine many people they knew would have been tempted. [/QUOTE] All my family who served in the British Army or RAF were “north” of the border or in Rhodesia at the time of the first or second world war, with the exception of a nurse who was stationed in Dublin at the time of the Easter Rising. In the Republic, the closest military ties we had were some rebels and an aunt of my father’s who was married to the commander of Irish forces in the Congo (so the story goes) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/35 "2008-04-03T22:41:48Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] The issue I had was with the general use of the word ‘paddy’. It’s impolite at best and insulting at worst in the context that it was used. That is, the word paddy can be seen as a pejorative when used by an English person. [/QUOTE] So you _are_ changing your mind? I thought the original assertion was that the use of ‘Paddy’ was “Insulting no matter how you meant it”. Either have the guts to admit you got that one at least slightly wrong, or shut up. GorillaMan, an Englishman in Ireland, proudly Irish in England. A true plastic paddy. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/36 "2008-04-03T22:53:55Z")
**Lochdale** , have you been out of Dublin a long time? The situation has changed a lot, and to call someone a “paddy” is scarcely worse than calling someone else a “Brit”. I lived in Dublin for ten years, as well as Co. Carlow, and spent a lot of time in Galway and Cork, and all the Irish people I know all over the country refer to themselves occasionally as “paddies”. They tell “paddy-Irishman, paddy-Englishman and paddy-Scotsman” jokes. At rugby time, there are the paddies, the taffs, the Scots (why don’t they get a rude name) and the “English bastards”. 😉 For me to call an Irish person a paddy, to their face, was never once perceived as an insult, and I have a _jolly_ English accent. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/37 "2008-04-03T22:59:18Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] the Scots (why don’t they get a rude name) [/QUOTE] Does “The fucking Scots” not count? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/38 "2008-04-03T23:26:39Z")
Sasanach bastards can call me what they want as long as they’re buying the next round. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![williambaskerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@williambaskerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williambaskerville)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/39 "2008-04-04T05:41:03Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] **Lochdale** , have you been out of Dublin a long time? The situation has changed a lot, and to call someone a “paddy” is scarcely worse than calling someone else a “Brit”. I lived in Dublin for ten years, as well as Co. Carlow, and spent a lot of time in Galway and Cork, and all the Irish people I know all over the country refer to themselves occasionally as “paddies”. [/QUOTE] Agreed. I’m Irish, and don’t find it insulting. It CAN be insulting,in some contexts, but not inherently. On the OP, the first house I bought was a cottage in Dublin, part of a small development originally financed by the British Legion to house returning Irish WW2 veterans.It was a shared financing type arrangement, as I understand it, the British Legion put up the original money for construction and the veterans repaid them over time. I don’t personally know any southern Irish who served in the British forces. However, a friend of mine did resign a commission in the Irish Army to go and serve in the French Foreign Legion .. which perhaps speaks to the limited opportunities for, shall we say, adventure in the Irish military. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666/40 "2008-04-04T08:22:13Z")
[QUOTE=Pushkin] “north” of the border or in Rhodesia at the time of the first or second world war [/QUOTE] This plagued me through the rush hour traffic this morning, the border not existing at the time of WWI :smack: What I meant to say was that everyone who served, with the exception of someone down in Dublin, seemed to be from the North Coast, with the exception of Rhodesian cousin Jack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-irishmen-in-brit-army-post-1922/443666.md?page=3)