# Southern Poverty Law Centre links Christian leaders’ anti-gay rhetoric to hate crimes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388 "2005-05-25T03:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/1 "2005-05-25T03:47:33Z")
[Rights Group Takes on Religious Extremists](http://www.dallasvoice.com/articles/dispArticle.cfm?Article_ID=6063) > [@](#): > > Mark Potok is editor of Intelligence Report, which is distributed primarily to law enforcement officers and media outlets. He said the magazine took the unprecedented step because of the increasingly hostile language of the religious right’s leaders. > > “I feel very strongly that some of these Christian Rights groups have essentially entered our world,” Potok said. “Since the Lawrence decision, we’ve seen the tone of these groups become more and more openly vicious in a personal way.” > > The religious right leaders have veered away from a theological discussion of their opposition to homosexuality and have instead resorted to castigation of the GLBT community, Potok said. > > “This is personal, and it’s mean,” Potok said. “I think these Christian rights leaders talk an awful lot about loving the sinner and hating the sin. I find that very difficult to discern in what most of these groups have been saying the last three years or so. It seems to be mainly about hating — period. What do the Dopers think? Fair call or case of “to a guy with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/2 "2005-05-25T04:04:55Z")
I think it’s absolutely a fair call, but it is probably more likely to feed martyr complexes and get the SPLC written off as God-haters and America-haters than it is to do any good. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/3 "2005-05-25T05:43:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Only one of the Christian groups highlighted in the issue is identified as a hate group. The Family Research Institute, of Colorado Springs, Colo., headed by Paul Cameron, cranks out so-called scientific studies that have bolstered the claims of early religious right leaders like born-again singer Anita Bryant, who founded Save Our Children in 1977, and the Rev. Jerry Falwell, who founded the Moral Majority in 1979. > [@](#): > > The Intelligence Report will continue to report on anti-gay hate crimes and trends, but there are no plans to regularly monitor the activities of religious right groups, as is done with hate groups, Potok said. So they are not claiming that all those groups are hate groups–and the lead paragraphs of the _Dallas Voice_ quoted in the OP, are misleading to that extent: that Focus on the Family is NOT being “lumped in” with the Klan. Rather, the SPLC is highlighting the ramifications of the rhetoric that the reviewed groups are spouting. I tend to agree that it will do nothing to change the approach by haters such as Dobson and Wildmon, but there is an outside chance that a few people will pull back from support of the rhetoric. The report, itself, is at [http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/intrep.jsp](http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/intrep.jsp) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/4 "2005-05-25T11:00:30Z")
I look forward to the classification of the Democratic party as a hate group, based on the increasingly shrill and viciously personal rhetoric of its chairman. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/5 "2005-05-25T11:51:01Z")
Oops! Sorry, about that, **tom**. Should have read more thoroughly. If you care to amend the thread title, please feel free to do so. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/6 "2005-05-25T13:45:13Z")
Done. (Original title, taken from lead paragraphs of linked article: Southern Poverty Law Centre puts Focus on the Family in the company of the Ku Klux Klan) ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/7 "2005-05-25T14:07:24Z")
**Shodan** , please provide cites showing that the Democratic party is engaging in behaviour that is causing criminal behaviour similiar to what the article is discussing. I’d be willing to settle for a couple of examples of people attacking members of groups that Dean has singled out. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/8 "2005-05-25T17:10:59Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > **Shodan** , please provide cites showing that the Democratic party is engaging in behaviour that is causing criminal behaviour similiar to what the article is discussing. I’d be delighted. Right after you provide the cites that show that FRC is causing criminal behavior against gays and lesbians. > [@Metacom](#): > > I’d be willing to settle for a couple of examples of people attacking members of groups that Dean has singled out. [Sure, no problem.](http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008282.php) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/9 "2005-05-25T17:16:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I look forward to the classification of the Democratic party as a hate group, based on the increasingly shrill and viciously personal rhetoric of its chairman. > > Regards, > Shodan We look forward to some “thoughtful insights”, other than partisan rhetoric tossed off during a drive-by posting. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/10 "2005-05-25T17:45:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’d be delighted. Right after you provide the cites that show that FRC is causing criminal behavior against gays and lesbians. I’ve never made this assertion, so I’m not going to provide cites for it. > [@](#): > > [Sure, no problem.](http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008282.php) By “members of a group Dean singled out” I ment a human members. I don’t consider real estate to be a member of the Republican party. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/11 "2005-05-25T17:52:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I look forward to the classification of the Democratic party as a hate group, based on the increasingly shrill and viciously personal rhetoric of its chairman. > [@Metacom](#): > > **Shodan** , please provide cites showing that the Democratic party is engaging in behaviour that is causing criminal behaviour similiar to what the article is discussing. > I’d be willing to settle for a couple of examples of people attacking members of groups that Dean has singled out. > [@Shodan](#): > > Sure, no problem. Um, **Shodan** , the report you linked to (about vandalism against a Republican campaign site) dates from October 2004. That’s several months **before** Dean took the DNC chairmanship and made the various “shrill and viciously personal” anti-Republican remarks that you’re claiming caused the vandalism. Unless you can show that the anti-Republican vandals were using a time machine, you’re going to have to do better than that. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/12 "2005-05-25T18:13:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’d be delighted. Right after you provide the cites that show that FRC is causing criminal behavior against gays and lesbians. > > Regards, > Shodan If you’re referring to the Family Research **Institute** (the FR **I** , not the Family Research Council [FR **C**] which wasn’t mentioned in the report or by anybody on this thread), which was labelled a hate group in the report, I can direct you to instances where: \*It’s founder (Paul Cameron) knowingly falsely accused gay men of severing the penis (“in a homosexual act”) of a young child in Nebraska, then recanted the statement with “it may or may not have happened” when shown it was an out&out lie \*Children have been removed from the custody of gay/lesbian parents due to Cameron’s “studies” ( **ALL** - literally **ALL** of which are disavowed by mainstream academica and even by conservative pundit/former-official William Bennett and the Catholic Church) \*Gays are disallowed in Arkansas from serving as foster parents due to his self published “studies”, injuring gays not as much as children who need foster homes \*Gays are continually maligned as more likely to molest, cause gender identity problems in and or “convert to homosexuality” children in their care, **ALWAYS** because of his pseudoscience \*Gays have been denied life insurance policies by some companies due to Cameron’s “findings” that the average life expectancy of a gay man is 43 (total rubbish that was immediately discredited but is still accepted by many conservatives) The vast majority of the rhetoric accusing gays of hyper-promiscuity, child molestation, violence, etc., used by churches and conservatives is usually based in Cameron’s work. The fact that these false studies from a man expelled from the APA and other professional organizations _specifically for deliberately false [as in “fraudulent”, not the “scientific falsification” definition] research_) inform many homophobes who commit acts of violence or influence those who do is not a terribly imaginative leap. While Cameron himself may never have done any criminal acts other than libel, he is certainly influential to those who do and classifying his organization as a hate group is completely justified; the man makes Cyril Burt and Julius Streicher look like Gilbert & Sullivan. Two useful links to Paul Cameron/FR **I** info: [1](http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron.html) [2](http://www.worldwiderant.com/archives/002164.html) (a piece I wrote- I can cite any info given in print or online) ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/13 "2005-05-25T18:26:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [Sure, no problem.](http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008282.php) > > Regards, > Shodan A blog? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/14 "2005-05-25T18:37:49Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Gays have been denied life insurance policies by some companies due to Cameron’s “findings” that the average life expectancy of a gay man is 43 (total rubbish that was immediately discredited but is still accepted by many conservatives) Well, _that_ at least is easily explainable—I’ve _never_ met a gay man who would admit to being over 43. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/15 "2005-05-25T19:00:29Z")
Also, **Shodan** , whereas any vandalism commited by Democratic supporters should be vigorously condemned, the Democratic Party did not invent the adversarial relationship between themselves and the Repulicans. Christian goups, OTOH, are responsible for the idea that gays should be considered an enemy. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/16 "2005-05-25T19:00:55Z")
Apparently **Shodan** really loves his [50% discount at Denny’s,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6171557&highlight=Denny%27s#post6171557) since it appears he hasn’t turned in his One-Trick Pony Lifetime Membership Card[sup]TM[/sup] 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/17 "2005-05-25T20:52:07Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > I’ve never made this assertion, so I’m not going to provide cites for it. Well, you did make this assertion: > [@Metacom](#): > > Shodan, please provide cites showing that the Democratic party is engaging in behaviour that is causing criminal behaviour similiar to what the article is discussing. which seems to be asserting that no group can be classed as a hate group unless they are causing criminal behavior. Haven’t seen any proof that Family Research Institute is causing criminal behavior either, so I guess we haven’t identified _any_ hate groups here, and the Southern Law Center must be wrong. Fair enough. > [@sqweels](#): > > Christian goups, OTOH, are responsible for the idea that gays should be considered an enemy. Really? So nobody ever condemned homosexuality before the FRI? Afraid I [can’t agree with you there.](http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla.htm) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/18 "2005-05-25T21:39:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Haven’t seen any proof that Family Research Institute is causing criminal behavior either, so I guess we haven’t identified _any_ hate groups here, and the Southern Law Center must be wrong. > > Regards, > Shodan Making an accusation of sexual mutilation that you know to be false and swearing in court to the accuracy of studies that you know do not be proper criteria for legal consideration as expert witness come pretty damned close _if_ they don’t qualify. Employing said studies to deliberately break up families do not qualify as a hate group, refusing to retract statements that are proven to be wrong, deliberately misquoting the statements of others, etc., all qualify as a hate group in my opinion. Out of curiosity, suppose that Cameron said that _Jews_ are more likely to molest children, _Jews_ sexually mutilated a boy, _Jews_ should be excluded from consideration as foster parents, \*Jews are dozens of times more likely to commit a violent crime, regularly ingest each other’s feces, prey on adolescents, etc. (all claims Cameron has made about gays) and that on basis of this “evidence” Jews were excluded from consideration in adoption, foster parentage, etc., and Neo-Nazis used this “research” in their recruitment and that said recruitments (through no direct order of Cameron) committed acts of anti-semitic violence, would your opinion of the FRI be different? For that matter, Fred Phelps has never assaulted a gay person. Do you consider Westboro Baptist (which _heavily_ cites Cameron on their web-site) a hate group. I am not asking your opinion on whether he is protected by freedom of speech, but whether holding graphic sexual images of anal sex and holding MATT SHEPARD BURNS IN HELL posters at Shepards funeral and calling your web-site [godhatesfags.com](http://godhatesfags.com) constitutes what _you_ or a reasonable person would consider acts of a hate group? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/19 "2005-05-25T21:43:53Z")
What a congregation of bad coding and grammar that was- allow me to correct: Making an accusation of sexual mutilation that you know to be false and swearing in court to the accuracy of studies that you know do not meet proper criteria for legal consideration as expert witness come pretty damned close if they don’t qualify. Employing said studies to deliberately break up families, refusing to retract statements that are proven to be wrong, deliberately misquoting the statements of others, etc., all qualify as a hate group in my opinion. Out of curiosity, suppose that Cameron said that Jews (or blacks, or Hispanics, or Muslims, or any other minority) are more likely to molest children, Jews sexually mutilated a boy, Jews should be excluded from consideration as foster parents, Jews are dozens of times more likely to commit a violent crime, regularly ingest each other’s feces, prey on adolescents, etc. (all claims Cameron has made about gays) and that on basis of this “evidence” Jews were excluded from consideration in adoption, foster parentage, etc., and Neo-Nazis used this “research” in their recruitment and that said recruits (through no direct order of Cameron) committed acts of violence against minorities, would your opinion of the FRI be different? For that matter, Fred Phelps has never assaulted a gay person. Do you consider Westboro Baptist (which heavily cites Cameron on their web-site) a hate group? I am not asking your opinion on whether he is protected by freedom of speech, but whether holding graphic sexual images of anal sex and holding MATT SHEPARD BURNS IN HELL posters at Shepard’s funeral (and calling your web-site [godhatesfags.com](http://godhatesfags.com)) constitutes what you or a reasonable person would consider acts of a hate group? If not, what does- must it necessarily result directly in physical violence? The vast majority of the members of the KKK have never physically injured a minority. Why, by your proviso, should they be considered a hate group? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/20 "2005-05-25T21:48:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, you did make this assertion That’s not an assertion. I asked you to provide cites to back up your argument that were similiar to the events that the article was discussing. I didn’t say that I agreed with the article or that I thought there was a corellation between the rhetoric and the attacks. I simply wanted you to provide some evidence to back up your partisan tu quoque. Which you haven’t done. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388.md?page=2)