# Southern Poverty Law Centre links Christian leaders’ anti-gay rhetoric to hate crimes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388 "2005-05-25T03:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/21 "2005-05-25T22:16:17Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > That’s not an assertion. I asked you to provide cites to back up your argument that were similiar to the events that the article was discussing. Well, “false framing” might fit better than “assertion”. Your post was based on the idea that a group is a hate group when it is “engaging in behaviour that is causing criminal behaviour”. But no examples of the criminal behavior caused by FRI have been provided. So, by your definition, FRI is not a hate group. Then you asked for examples of people attacking members of groups that Dean had singled out. So I provided one. The idea that property crimes can’t be hate crimes is pretty weak - abortion clinic bombings or cross burnings where no one got hurt would not count as a hate crime by that definition. > [@Metacom](#): > > I didn’t say that I agreed with the article or that I thought there was a corellation between the rhetoric and the attacks. Good - I don’t agree with the article either. It strikes me as another example of a group trying to define “any speech that I disagree with” as hate speech, or a crime. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/22 "2005-05-25T22:25:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It strikes me as another example of a group trying to define “any speech that I disagree with” as hate speech, or a crime. > > Regards, > Shodan It’s less “any speech that I disagree with” that I consider hate-speech than it is “any speech that is MALICIOUS, DEMONSTRABLY FALSE AND KNOWN BY ITS CREATOR TO BE SO, WILLFULLY DEFAMATORY and SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN TO BRING POLITICAL AND EMOTIONAL HARM TO A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PEOPLE”. (Caps used to highlight the otherwise very subtle difference.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/23 "2005-05-25T23:52:40Z")
**Shodan:** \*Then you asked for examples of people attacking members of groups that Dean had singled out. So I provided one. \* As I noted above, though, your claim that that attack was somehow linked to the notorious anti-Republican comments of Dean as Democratic Party chairman requires us to assume the use of a time machine. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/24 "2005-05-25T23:59:42Z")
Well, I gather I’m being ignored, but I’ll ask another question of Shodan anyway. The [Institute for Historical Review (IHR)](http://www.ihr.org/) has much in common with Family Research Institute: both have innocuous sounding names, both publish and sell “research” to ultra-conservative institutions, both propagate demonstrable falsehoods deliberately fabricated to advance a hate-based agenda, and neither has ever advocated in writing a physical attack on another person. (In the case of IHR the falsehood is Holocaust denial.) Do you consider IHR a hate group? If not, why not? If so, why do you not consider FRI one? RSVP. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/25 "2005-05-26T02:55:52Z")
I don’t have the reports in front of me right now, but didn’t some of these groups or individuals adopt an extreme Dominionist view? Didn’t some of them call for the imposition of some strange biblical law that includes execution of “certain types” of people? Sounds like hate to me. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/26 "2005-05-26T03:12:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I look forward to the classification of the Democratic party as a hate group, based on the increasingly shrill and viciously personal rhetoric of its chairman. > > Regards, > Shodan Willie Horton. Swift Boats. Blowjobs. Boo fucking hoo, crybaby. Irregardless, minty ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/27 "2005-05-26T03:26:40Z")
“Crybaby”? You know better than that, **minty green**. Do not resort to name calling or personal insults in **Great Debates**. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/28 "2005-05-26T03:33:14Z")
**Shodan** , could you please tell us how _you_ define “hate speech?” Does it exist at all, in your opinion. (In your answer, please spare us any more reiteration of what you think that “liberals” mean by the word. I’m only asking what YOU would consider hate speech). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/29 "2005-05-26T03:35:35Z")
**rjung** , your One-Trick Pony crack is also out of line. yeeeesh! [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/30 "2005-05-26T12:27:25Z")
You’re right, I should have known better. My apologies for the breach of decorum. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/31 "2005-05-26T16:08:04Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Well, _that_ at least is easily explainable—I’ve _never_ met a gay man who would admit to being over 43. Yes, I’ve been 43 for over 16 years. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/32 "2005-05-26T16:30:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Really? So nobody ever condemned homosexuality before the FRI? Afraid I can’t agree with you there. So Christian groups in the US are anti-gay because Islam is forcing them to be? You are aware that Judeo-Christianity predates Islam? I’m including the Catholic Church under “Christian groups” (I don’t know how powerful anti-gay Jewish groups are), but it’s not a question of who was the first to be anti-gay but who is perpetuating this attitude in the US given their power and influence. ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/33 "2005-05-26T16:40:16Z")
Southern Poverty Law Center is my charity of choice. I give a modest amount to them each month and continue to be pleased with what they do. I don’t find their words to be inflammatory. I am pleased to find them opposing hate against gays, I feel like I am getting more bang for my charity buck. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/34 "2005-05-26T16:53:42Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Southern Poverty Law Center is my charity of choice. I give a modest amount to them each month and continue to be pleased with what they do. I don’t find their words to be inflammatory. I am pleased to find them opposing hate against gays, I feel like I am getting more bang for my charity buck. I think they do good work as well, but I must admit I would _never_ give them money. They are one of the richest non-profit organizations in the world (due to extremely good management- Morris Dees was always a better businessman than than lawyer [he was a self made millionaire in his 20s]). The nickname for their HQ in Montgomery, AL is _The Poverty Palace_. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/35 "2005-05-26T19:44:14Z")
Below are just a “taste” of what one report says. It looks like hate to me. If even one tenth of this is absolutely verbatim truth, how could anyone possibly defend it? > [@](#): > > Democracy, which Rushdoony called “the great love of the failures and cowards of life,” would be replaced by strict Old Testament law — meaning the \*\*death penalty \*\* for homosexuality, along with a host of other “abominations,” including heresy, astrology, and (for women only) “unchastity before marriage.” > > In 2002, Moore wrote a lengthy concurrence in a custody case involving a lesbian mother. After describing homosexuality as “abhorrent, immoral, detestable, a crime against nature,” Moore asserted that “[t]he State carries the power of the sword, that is, the power to prohibit [homosexual] conduct with physical penalties, such as confinement and even **execution**. It must use that power to prevent the subversion of children toward this lifestyle.” > > Save Our Children’s primary tactic was fear mongering. Gay people were “sick,” “perverted,” “twisted,” and a threat to American families. > “Homosexuals cannot reproduce,” Bryant often said, “so they must recruit. And to freshen their ranks they must recruit the youth of America.” > > Save Our Children distributed a press kit with a paper titled, “Why Certain Sexual Deviations Are **Punishable By Death**.” Homosexuality was, of course, among those deviations. So was “racial mixing of human seed.” > > Cameron’s “studies” falsely concluded that gay people were disproportionately responsible for child molestation, for the majority of serial killings, and for the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Gay people, according to Cameron’s research, were obsessed with consuming human excrement, allowing them to spread deadly diseases simply by shaking hands with unsuspecting strangers or using public restrooms. > “Of all the vices,” Cameron concluded in a pamphlet called Medical Aspects of Homosexuality, “only homosexuality constitutes a conspiracy against society.” > Cameron’s brand of “science” **echoed Nazi Germany**. “These themes of disease and seduction are **strongly reminiscent of older, anti-Semitic discourse** ,” writes Didi Herman in The Antigay Agenda. “Jews historically were associated with disease, filth, urban degeneration, and child stealing.” > > After being **expelled from the American Psychological Association in 1983 for violating ethical standards** in his anti-gay publications Cameron began referring to himself as a sociologist — until the American Sociological Association passed a 1986 resolution declaring, “Paul Cameron is \*\*not a sociologist, and [this group] condemns his constant misrepresentation \*\* of sociological research.” > > In 1986, Summit Ministries, a right-wing Christian group in Colorado, distributed a booklet called Special Report: AIDS, co-written by Cameron, Summit leader David Noebel and Wayne Lutton (Lutton would later be an editor for an anti-immigrant hate group, the Social Contract Press, and act as editorial advisor to the **white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens** ). > > In July 1998, Pat Robertson warned the citizens of Orlando, Fla., that if Disney World didn’t cancel “Gay Day,” their city would be subject to **God’s wrath, in the form of "terrorist bombs, earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor**." > > “I’ve never seen a man in my life I wanted to marry,” said the Rev. Jimmy Swaggart. “And I’m gonna be blunt and plain: if one ever looks at me like that, I’m gonna **kill him and tell God he died**.” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/36 "2005-05-26T20:12:26Z")
> [@](#): > > “Of all the vices,” Cameron concluded in a pamphlet called Medical Aspects of Homosexuality, “only homosexuality constitutes a conspiracy against society.” And we’d have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn’t for you meddling straights… ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/37 "2005-05-26T20:24:16Z")
Robertson’s meteor prediction was one of his more bizarre moments. I didn’t realize that God had terrorist bombs in His arsenal, and earthquakes are a bit more Jovian. Florida of course has plenty of tornadoes in any given year but to my knowledge none have gone near the Kingdom of the Rodent even though Gay Day has not only not-ceased but gets larger every year (thanks in part, perhaps, to the publiclity supplied by Robertson, Falwell, etc.). I like the fact that God considers a 2% majority a [blowout election](http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2004-01-02-god-bush_x.htm). And he doesn’t mind talking to people who use ministerial airlines to supply equipment to African business interests shared with murdering dictators. Veddy veddy bad man is Robertson. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/38 "2005-05-26T21:53:32Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > And we’d have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn’t for you meddling straights… Dammit! That was supposed to be a SECRET agenda! Now everyone knows. Harumph. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/39 "2005-05-26T22:30:59Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Yes, I’ve been 43 for over 16 years. Hell… I’ve been _21_ for 13 years. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388/40 "2005-05-27T00:50:28Z")
It would appear Shodan has left the building. A pity, because my questions were not rhetorical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-poverty-law-centre-links-christian-leaders-anti-gay-rhetoric-to-hate-crimes/305388.md?page=3)