# Southern Strategy denialism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651 "2014-02-18T20:45:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/81 "2014-02-20T19:10:00Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You’re reading waaaay too much into this. It was racism. It didn’t have to make sense. > > I’m just saying Cadillac was once a racist symbol. I’m not saying Reagan used it that way. Ok, understood. I don’t know if Reagan ever used the word “Cadillac” in reference to welfare fraud; the original case, the term “welfare queen”, and details of Cadillacs, furs, and jewelry [came from reports by the Chicago Tribune](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2013/12/linda_taylor_welfare_queen_ronald_reagan_made_her_a_notorious_american_villain.html). Reagan stripped the account of the individual’s name, and made it part of his welfare reform speeches during the '76 campaign. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > It’s not my argument - it’s the racists’ argument! And racists are not known for rational thought. Go tell them that their crude stereotype was illogical. I’m just saying it existed. Ok. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > Really? I heard it myself, over and over, growing up in the South in the 1970s. If you don’t trust me, let’s end this conversation. It’s not a matter of trust, but pervasiveness. You can substantiate that black folks were stereotyped as driving Cadillacs they couldn’t afford, in your part of the South, in the '70s. I have no reason to believe you’re lying, but that doesn’t tell me if a reader in New Hampshire, or Illinois, or California, during the '70s would have made the same connection, is all. Substantiating that is likely beyond the abilities of this message board. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > Yes, it’s clearly before your time. > > I’m curious - were you aware of the chicken and watermelon thing? Or has that faded with time too? Yes, I knew about those. I was also aware of the stereotype of black men spending all their money on luxury goods, but not that specific term for it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/82 "2014-02-20T19:11:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, my point was that when blacks finally got the right to vote, they pretty much all voted in the Democratic primaries! > > Clearly they weren’t racist. Clearly they were able to find candidates who weren’t racist too. That was after the Voting Rights Act and in the midst of the Civil Rights movement. So suddenly, Democratic politicians were able to win in some areas without being racists, when before they had to be racist to win (because black people couldn’t vote). In addition, minds were changing. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/83 "2014-02-20T19:12:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Also, the Civil Rights movement literally changed a lot of hearts and minds. There were millions of white Americans that were racists before the movement, and not racist afterwards. Many of those remained Democrats. Though not enough to keep the South Democratic. There were differing degrees of racism, too - the whole gamut from enthusiastically participating in lynchings as a perceived civic duty, to feeling bad about it but accepting peer pressure from their fellow whites not to do anything about it. That included being able to accept being part of a political coalition to help their party and their progressive candidates win elections. The Democrats were schizophrenic about race from their very founding right up into the 1960’s, remember. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/84 "2014-02-20T19:13:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That was after the Voting Rights Act and in the midst of the Civil Rights movement. So suddenly, Democratic politicians were able to win in some areas without being racists, when before they had to be racist to win (because black people couldn’t vote). Well, it’s more like the racists started losing and the non-racists started winning. A bunch of former racists didn’t suddenly declare “I’m not racist anymore, black people, so vote for me!” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/85 "2014-02-20T19:18:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ok, understood. Your precious Reagan is safe. 😃 > [@](#): > > It’s not a matter of trust, but pervasiveness. You can substantiate that black folks were stereotyped as driving Cadillacs they couldn’t afford, in your part of the South, in the '70s. I have no reason to believe you’re lying, but that doesn’t tell me if a reader in New Hampshire, or Illinois, or California, during the '70s would have made the same connection, is all. I recall it being pretty pervasive too. Much like most stereotypes. Not all believe them or used them, of course, but most people are aware of them. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/86 "2014-02-20T19:20:00Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Really, if the right was as willing to trash the capitalist system for the much larger sins of those practicing it as they are willing to trash welfare because of a few criminals, we’d be living under socialism now. All the welfare kings and queens have not come close to costing the taxpayers what one banker cost us. And yet banking reform only came when the entire world was about to be set afire, and then it was so tepid that we’ll likely have similar problems within 20 years. Where is the GOP in trying to reform banking? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/87 "2014-02-20T19:22:09Z")
Hey look, I found it in 2013! > [@](#): > > The blacks dont mind the food stamps… the blacks also dont mind not working… cause if they have a bunch of kids, like they usually do… **welfare will take care of that… so again, they dont have to work. They will still drive a big old cadillac and live in a shack.** But for sure… when they drive down that street… they can think of how much Obama has given them. Regardless, they will still vote for him… no matter what… cause he’s BLACK!! Remember O J Simpson? Remember Charles Rangel….? [http://www.westernjournalism.com/obama-phone-ladies-crackheads-and-black-professionals-on-life-support/#PsSf73VhsgIYKc1J.99](http://www.westernjournalism.com/obama-phone-ladies-crackheads-and-black-professionals-on-life-support/#PsSf73VhsgIYKc1J.99) And here’s one from 2009: > [@](#): > > Don’t forget the LIME-GREEN **CADILLAC** , with super shiny rims, ultra skinny tires, fake zebra fur seat covers, lots of extra chrome bling detailing, and a double whammy extra loud bass sound system, just to let you know that “he be drivin dat kaa so u betuh be lookin” and you can hear it coming a mile away… > > But of course he can’t work cuz “da meskins dey be takin all de jobs”, and \*\*he lives in section 8 housing and eats food stamp food \*\*because he can’t afford to pay for his own way, can’t afford to support his 5 children from the 4 baby mommas he impregnated and he can only get by in life with a handout… > > Your tax dollars at work… [http://www.chimpout.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-57083.html](http://www.chimpout.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-57083.html) Sorry to repost such ugliness. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/88 "2014-02-20T19:24:03Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Well, it’s more like the racists started losing and the non-racists started winning. A bunch of former racists didn’t suddenly declare “I’m not racist anymore, black people, so vote for me!” Yes, that’s what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/89 "2014-02-20T19:24:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, that’s what I meant. Okay, good. Of course, not only were some of the candidates winning the Democratic primaries not racist, some were even black. That sent the racists fleeing fast. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/90 "2014-02-20T19:27:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s a good thing you actually don’t know. Those who said it knew, because they knew those who heard it would know. > > Reagan was referring to an entire subculture and his audience knew the reference as well as his scriptwriters - even if the only actual example anyone could come up with that matched his anecdote didn’t actually match at all. No, he wasn’t referring to only a single person, or even to a South Sider. Please note that he didn’t actually say the “welfare queen” in question was white, he left the audience to fill in the obvious blank. According to the NYT piece I linked to, Linda Taylor “became known in the headlines as the ‘welfare queen’”. Her story was evidently well-covered in the Tribune, and casually referred to in the NYT. If Reagan didn’t specify her ethnicity, it could be because it was already known from the Tribune coverage (I have been unable to locate the original story, so I don’t know if they included a picture or described Taylor’s ethnicity), or because he didn’t think it was relevant. Or, a sinister attempt to lead the audiences he was speaking to that she was black. Eliminating the former two options takes a lot of decoding and drawing inferences, to the point that it’s hard to be sure of any firm conclusion. [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] It wasn’t primarily about welfare fraud, was it? The reference was to lazy, shiftless (you still hear that term, too) … inferior humans. Once again, it wasn’t \*about \*fighting welfare fraud. [/quote] Well, yes and no. It’d help if I knew what you were contending, exactly, as Reagan’s true motives. [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] You had already rebutted your second sentence with your first. Yes, the stereotype still exists, and, shamefully, many young blacks who don’t know their past indulge in it, while calling each other the n-word and so forth as well. [/QUOTE] I never knew it as a general stereotype about all black men, just the young millionaires. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/91 "2014-02-20T19:30:15Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Okay, good. > > Of course, not only were some of the candidates winning the Democratic primaries not racist, some were even black. That sent the racists fleeing fast. Right, and they were encouraged and welcomed with open arms by the Republicans, utilizing (wait for it…) … … … the Southern Strategy. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/92 "2014-02-20T19:31:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right, and they were encouraged and welcomed with open arms by the Republicans, utilizing (wait for it…) > … > … > … > > the Southern Strategy. Exactly. The Southern Strategy was an effect, not a cause. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/93 "2014-02-20T19:34:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If Reagan didn’t specify her ethnicity, it could be because it was already known from the Tribune coverage Or not. Consider how much work reporters had to do to find the case he was referring to. > [@](#): > > Well, yes and no. It’d help if I knew what you were contending, exactly, as Reagan’s true motives. Getting votes. > [@](#): > > I never knew it as a general stereotype about all black men, just the young millionaires. The key word isn’t “all” or even “millionaires”. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/94 "2014-02-20T19:36:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Setting aside the fact that Reagan never actually used the term “welfare queen”, but rather shared examples, **mostly true ones** , of welfare fraud, how does “Cadillac” cinch the association of “black person” when joined with “welfare queen”? Because there was a subculture of car customizers that sometimes used Cadillacs? That’s asking your audience to draw a lot of inferences. (bolding mine) Do you mean that most of the stories he told were true, or do you mean that the stories he told were “mostly” true? > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Could be before my time. The only association I know between black folks and Cadillacs is rappers and athletics and the Escalade. All I did was ask for a cite, and post figures indicative that Cadillac buyers (a decade later, but it’s all I could find) were quite affluent, and thus likely mostly old and white. You’re wrong. You’re ignorant and wrong. Several people have tried to explain common phrases and perceptions from the 1960s-1980s regarding this to you, but you just continue to deny their claims. Go watch a Dolomite movie. Or come up with some cites that contradict what you’re being told by those of us who lived during those times. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/95 "2014-02-20T19:44:12Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Your precious Reagan is safe. 😃 > > I recall it being pretty pervasive too. Much like most stereotypes. Not all believe them or used them, of course, but most people are aware of them. I can’t give you the episode numbers or anything, but I seem to recall that this type of thing was a source of perpetual jokes, situations, etc. on many of Norman Lear’s shows, such as _All In The Family_, _The Jefferson_, _Sanford & Son_, _Good Times_, and so forth. Heck, the entire premise of [_The Jeffersons_ is how white people are surprised that this black guy is actually well-off and not just faking it with fancy suits and a car and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/96 "2014-02-20T19:45:02Z")
There absolutely and definitely was (and possibly still is) a stereotypical association between blacks and Cadillacs. No doubt. But that said, I would argue that it went mostly one way. Meaning that you said Black+luxury car and that conjured up an image of a Cadillac. But referring to a Cadillac would not conjure up an image of a Black person. At that time, the Cadillac was in general the stereotypical luxury car in the US (it still is today, but to a much lesser extent, e.g. the ACA “Cadillac tax”). If you meant to conjure up an image of any “poor person” living the high life, Black or White, you might say Cadillac. IOW, if you’re predisposed to see coded racism, and you already believe there’s hidden racism all over the place waiting for you to find it, it’s there for you. If that’s not what you’re looking for, then not necessarily. Which pretty much sums up this thread, FTM. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/97 "2014-02-20T19:52:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I can’t give you the episode numbers or anything, but I seem to recall that this type of thing was a source of perpetual jokes, situations, etc. on many of Norman Lear’s shows, such as _All In The Family_, _The Jefferson_, _Sanford & Son_, _Good Times_, and so forth. Heck, the entire premise of [_The Jeffersons_ is how white people are surprised that this black guy is actually well-off and not just faking it with fancy suits and a car and stuff. Good point. I found a few references to Cadillacs in some Archie Bunker quotes out there. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/98 "2014-02-20T19:56:27Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Or not. Consider how much work reporters had to do to find the case he was referring to. How much? The NYT piece doesn’t mention any special effort, and says Taylor was “well known in the headlines”. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Getting votes. I fully agree, as I articulated in post 75. In this case, there was an element of exaggerating a few anecdotes into a full-blown crisis, and an element of the legitimate need for welfare reform (which had to wait till after Reagan left office to actually happen). > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The key word isn’t “all” or even “millionaires”. Just relating my personal experience with stereotypes here, as others have. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > (bolding mine) > Do you mean that most of the stories he told were true, or do you mean that the stories he told were “mostly” true? Hard to say, there are examples of both. Per [Slate](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2013/12/linda_taylor_welfare_queen_ronald_reagan_made_her_a_notorious_american_villain.html), Reagan correctly conveyed the details of the Linda Taylor case. The NYT story from 1976, though, covers some exaggerations and distortions. For example, Reagan described a new housing projects where subsidized luxury apartments could be had for $113.20, when the actual figure was around $300. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > You’re wrong. You’re ignorant and wrong. Several people have tried to explain common phrases and perceptions from the 1960s-1980s regarding this to you, but you just continue to deny their claims. Go watch a Dolomite movie. Or come up with some cites that contradict what you’re being told by those of us who lived during those times. Whoa, there, where did I deny their claims? First, I asked for a cite, as I knew the Cadillac as an old white man’s car. Then, several posters stated that there was, indeed, a stereotypical association between Cadillacs and black folks. I asked if there was a way to substantiate this, and particularly the pervasiveness of it, but that’s not a denial. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/99 "2014-02-20T19:59:33Z")
Human Action, is it possible to correctly state the fundamental details of an anecdote, but to do so in an overall deceitfully misleading way? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/100 "2014-02-20T20:01:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But that said, I would argue that it went mostly one way. Meaning that you said Black+luxury car and that conjured up an image of a Cadillac. But referring to a Cadillac would not conjure up an image of a Black person. That’s what I’d been driving at, that just “Cadillac” evokes old white man. **ElvisL1ves** pointed out that, in conjunction with “welfare queen”, it’d serve as racist code, evoking a spendthrift black moocher, and that’s plausible enough on its face, I suppose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651.md?page=6)