# Southern Strategy denialism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651 "2014-02-18T20:45:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/101 "2014-02-20T20:01:56Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Whoa, there, where did I deny their claims? First, I asked for a cite, as I knew the Cadillac as an old white man’s car. Then, several posters stated that there was, indeed, a stereotypical association between Cadillacs and black folks. I asked if there was a way to substantiate this, and particularly the pervasiveness of it, but that’s not a denial. Yeah, Bo, lay off. He’s doing an okay job of listening to his elders, who know better than he does. (Some of us were even actually born before Reagan was president!) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/102 "2014-02-20T20:05:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Human Action, is it possible to correctly state the fundamental details of an anecdote, but to do so in an overall deceitfully misleading way? Yes, sure. One man’s deception is another’s straighforward rendering of the relevant facts, though, so it’s a hard thing to nail down, and probably depends heavily on one’s pre-conceived ideas. I’m pre-disposed to think well of Reagan, for instance, and don’t consider welfare reform to axiomatically mean an assault on black people (living in a state with a lot of poor white people on government assistance will do that), or bad policy (though I’d replace the whole shebang with a negative income tax, if I were emperor). ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/103 "2014-02-20T20:08:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, sure. One man’s deception is another’s straighforward rendering of the relevant facts, though, so it’s a hard thing to nail down, and probably depends heavily on one’s pre-conceived ideas. I’m pre-disposed to think well of Reagan, for instance, and don’t consider welfare reform to axiomatically mean an assault on black people (living in a state with a lot of poor white people on government assistance will do that), or bad policy (though I’d replace the whole shebang with a negative income tax, if I were emperor). Heck, welfare itself was often a racist code word. Still is. I think you’re making the mistake of assuming that because you don’t think like a racist asshole, other people didn’t. (Which is another example of how young people get trapped by progress.) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/104 "2014-02-20T20:21:36Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Heck, welfare itself was often a racist code word. Still is. > > I think you’re making the mistake of assuming that because you don’t think like a racist asshole, other people didn’t. (Which is another example of how young people get trapped by progress.) There may be some of that, the past is another country, after all, and perhaps three quarters of the people who heard Reagan speak about welfare fraud and reform nodded their heads and thought “Ol’ Ronny’s telling me he’s gonna stick it to the black man, he’s got my vote for sure!” But, there’s another trap, in thinking that just because some racist assholes respond to a message, the message is designed for those racist assholes in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/105 "2014-02-20T20:25:47Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Heck, welfare itself was often a racist code word. Still is. Which is what I referred to earlier in saying charges of code words are sometimes “_used to supress discussion of legitimate issues by tarring them as racist_”. Anyone who believes the welfare state should be cut back is open to being accused of being racist or trying to appeal to racists. Ditto for anyone who wants to crack down on crime. Or any number of other issues. There’s little you can do about it. It’s an effective tactic. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/106 "2014-02-20T20:26:03Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > There may be some of that, the past is another country, after all, and perhaps three quarters of the people who heard Reagan speak about welfare fraud and reform nodded their heads and thought “Ol’ Ronny’s telling me he’s gonna stick it to the black man, he’s got my vote for sure!” > > But, there’s another trap, in thinking that just because some racist assholes respond to a message, the message is designed for those racist assholes in particular. I agree. It’s even possible that Ronnie didn’t know how racists would respond because he wasn’t one. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/107 "2014-02-20T20:28:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Which is what I referred to earlier in saying charges of code words are sometimes “_used to supress discussion of legitimate issues by tarring them as racist_”. “Tarring?” Is that a racial reference? 😃 > [@](#): > > Anyone who believes the welfare state should be cut back is open to being accused of being racist or trying to appeal to racists. Ditto for anyone who wants to crack down on crime. “Crack?” Why say “crack”? Why not just cocaine? Are you making a racial reference? 😃 Seriuosly, you’re right, and it drives me insane too. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/108 "2014-02-20T20:44:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Which is what I referred to earlier in saying charges of code words are sometimes “_used to supress discussion of legitimate issues by tarring them as racist_”…There’s little you can do about it. It’s an effective tactic. Well, yes, there is something you can do about it. You can be aware of the existence of the concept of code words, and even what they are. You can avoid using them and find more direct wording to make your legitimate point (assuming it \*is \*legitimate), and thereby avoid being misconstrued as using code for something illegitimate. All it takes, besides basic honesty and true non-racism, is awareness of the issue and the articulateness to avoid it. It isn’t really all that hard. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/109 "2014-02-20T20:47:18Z")
Is “there’s too much crime” a legitimate issue? Or is it a code for “there are too many blacks around here?” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/110 "2014-02-20T20:47:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Well, yes, there is something you can do about it. You can be aware of the existence of the concept of code words, and even what they are. You can avoid using them and find more direct wording to make your legitimate point (assuming it \*is \*legitimate), and thereby avoid being misconstrued as using code for something illegitimate. All it takes, besides basic honesty and true non-racism, is awareness of the issue and the articulateness to avoid it. It isn’t really all that hard. Perhaps, but he’s not obligated to make sure that he unintentionally ever uses a word that someone else will take differently. What’s required is some good faith. When someone says something that you think could be racist, you just ask. If they say “I didn’t mean it that way,” you simply say okay and continue. You don’t bash him. (I don’t mean you in particular). Don’t assume the worst. I’m reminded of this ridiculous incident: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/111 "2014-02-20T20:49:16Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Is “there’s too much crime” a legitimate issue? Or is it a code for “there are too many blacks around here?” The irony is that the speaker could have no reference whatsoever to race in mind, but it’s the critic who thinks of blacks when he hears “crime.” Who’s the racist there? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/112 "2014-02-20T20:52:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It is. Anything with the phrase “states’ rights” in it almost certainly in. I disagree. What phrase should I use to express the belief that the federal constitution establishes a federal government of supreme authority in its bailiwick but of limited, enumerated powers, and retains state governments of dual sovereignty and plenary powers? Unless you aver that the above belief is itself somehow inherently racist…? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/113 "2014-02-20T20:52:47Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Is “there’s too much crime” a legitimate issue? Or is it a code for “there are too many blacks around here?” It’s been the latter, and not in the distant past either - the 1968 campaign was about “law and order” regarding domestic policy, as you may remember. The former can be true too, but it takes some detail to explain - what crimes, where, what you think need to be done about it. Yes, the existence of code makes it more difficult to bring up a legitimate issue that has been used as code, but if you want to get a point across, that’s what it takes. The past does resonate in the present (and it isn’t always past), and you do need to be aware of the context when you speak. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/114 "2014-02-20T20:53:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree. > > What phrase should I use to express the belief that the federal constitution establishes a federal government of supreme authority in its bailiwick but of limited, enumerated powers, and retains state governments of dual sovereignty and plenary powers? New Federalism? That’s the phrase that was invented back in Reagan’s day to avoid “states rights.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/115 "2014-02-20T21:05:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What phrase should I use to express the belief that the federal constitution establishes a federal government of supreme authority in its bailiwick but of limited, enumerated powers, and retains state governments of dual sovereignty and plenary powers? Academic would be the kindest that comes to mind. Meaningless would be another. > [@](#): > > Unless you aver that the above belief is itself somehow inherently racist…? Its origin is in the deal that kept the slave states in the union. If you mean something else by it today, you do have to recognize that it comes from a racist heritage. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/116 "2014-02-20T21:05:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s been the latter, and not in the distant past either - the 1968 campaign was about “law and order” regarding domestic policy, as you may remember. The former can be true too, but it takes some detail to explain - what crimes, where, what you think need to be done about it. Yes, the existence of code makes it more difficult to bring up a legitimate issue that has been used as code, but if you want to get a point across, that’s what it takes. The past does resonate in the present (and it isn’t always past), and you do need to be aware of the context when you speak. OK. So you want to replace “vote for me and I’ll reduce crime” with “vote for me and I’ll use enhanced patrolling and updated police techniques etc. etc. to reduce burglaries on the West Side of town”. And if you don’t, you’re using racist code words. Your original claim was: _“It isn’t really all that hard.”_ I don’t think you’ve supported that claim. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/117 "2014-02-20T21:10:29Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > So you want to replace “vote for me and I’ll reduce crime” with “vote for me and I’ll use enhanced patrolling and updated police techniques etc. etc. to reduce burglaries on the West Side of town”. Yes, as a voter I want to know you have an actual plan based on an actual problem, not that you’re insultingly dogwhistling me for the sake of my vote. > [@](#): > > And if you don’t, you’re using racist code words. Whether you mean them that way or not, yes, you are, and you do need to be aware of it. > [@](#): > > Your original claim was: _“It isn’t really all that hard.”_ I don’t think you’ve supported that claim. You haven’t really \*tried \*all that hard yet, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/118 "2014-02-20T21:13:56Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > :dubious: Do you have a cite on that? Cadillacs have always been the province of wealthy folks, which means they are also the province of white folks, and old white folks in particular. The demographics have shifted some with the introduction of the Escalade in 1999 and the Art & Science redesign in the early 2000s, but when were Cadillacs ever “the car black people drove”? > > [This article from 1991](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1991-07-21/features/9107130187_1_luxury-car-buyer-profile-buying-a-luxury) states that the typical Cadillac buyer earns $70-$85,000 per year. > > By the way, as your cite notes, the actual welfare cheat Reagan was talking about actually did drive a Cadillac (and was white). In New York around 1968 it was well accepted. Which doesn’t mean it was true. Racist joke from about 1968: Q: What do 9 out of 10 Cadillac owners say? A: Those white people sure make fine cars. I’m not sure I want to search for evidence of this at work - maybe tonight unless someone else has already found it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/119 "2014-02-20T21:15:36Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > :eek: > > How old are you? > > I’m laughing when I read this, because I thought everyone knew the insulting stereotype of the Cadillac-driving black guy. The “joke” was that blacks had fancy Cadillacs, but lived in shacks - they spent all their money on their cars and not their homes. > > Assuming you’re not aware of this because you’re too young, this post is a great example of how “code words” are forgotten, and then an innocent person accidentally uses one and gets pounced on by those who still remember them. I think that’s unfair. Ironically, racists who know the insults are careful to avoid them, it’s the innocent who walk into the trap. Thank you. These children don’t understand. Or realize how racist people were back then, and how in the early '60s Southern politicians didn’t even pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651/120 "2014-02-20T21:22:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree. > > What phrase should I use to express the belief that the federal constitution establishes a federal government of supreme authority in its bailiwick but of limited, enumerated powers, and retains state governments of dual sovereignty and plenary powers? > > Unless you aver that the above belief is itself somehow inherently racist…? Small vs. big government seems to work well for conservatives, despite itself being a fiction. But being an argument about code words, someone like you is not likely to be manifestly convinced. I mean, we all know that racists exist. We can imagine that there may be times that racists would like to not be obvious. This may just be one of the those situations where the location of the mess hall can’t be found in the regulations, yet people still get their three squares a day, counselor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/southern-strategy-denialism/681651.md?page=7)