# Sovereign citizen tests his theories in practice; is shocked by the results **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 19, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218 "2012-09-19T23:15:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/21 "2012-09-20T06:05:12Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Apart from everything, it looks as if they hold to a fascinating interpretation of the establishment of the “legal person” concept vis-a-vis corporate entities, where some elements in the wack community conclude then it must mean that therefore THAT is the only meaning of “person” to whom the laws apply, entirely divorcing legal from natural individual personhood. So this is where all this about corporations being persons leads… to _people not_ wanting to be persons??? Huh? It’s true that for legal purposes, corporations are treated as legal persons, but I don’t think that’s what the freemen are referring to. Rather, they are splitting hairs as to wording in various constitutional and legal documents and statutes. Let’s take a look at a few: > [@U.S. Constitution](#): > > No _person_ shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury… > [@U.S. Constitution](#): > > All _persons_ born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside… We see “person” in other constitutional documents as well. Example: > [@Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms](#): > > Any _person_ charged with an offence has the right… Emphasis added by me in all examples. Note that these examples (few as they are) all use “person.” This indicates to me, as a Canadian citizen, that if I am in the US, I can count on the protections of the Fifth Amendment if I am arrested. And, as per the Fourteenth Amendment, I (as a non-US-citizen) can also become a naturalized US citizen in, say, Colorado; and if I do and continue to live in Colorado, then I am both a US citizen and a citizen of Colorado. Similarly, as per the Canadian Charter, American citizens (and all non-Canadians who run afoul of Canadian law in Canada) have the protections laid out in that document’s s. 11. In short, “person” is, for the purposes of constitutional rights, a handy way to make sure that those rights are extended to everybody, citizen or not, who may need them. Contrast this with other sections of the same documents: > [@Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms](#): > > Every _citizen_ of Canada has the right to vote… > [@U.S. Constitution](#): > > All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are _citizens_ of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of _citizens_ of the United States… Again, emphasis added by me for both examples. Here we see a difference between plain ol’ “persons” and “citizens.” Regardless, this is the kind of difference that the freemen look for. Legally, there is a difference between “persons” and “citizens” in constitutional documents, as I have demonstrated; and it is this difference (among others) that it seems to me that the freemen are hoping to exploit. Unfortunately for them, they seem to have the entirely wrong idea about the respective words’ meanings and the reasons for using them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/22 "2012-09-20T06:17:11Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Are toe shoes a Sovereign Citizen thing? Sheeple may submit to foot consolidationism but a Free Man upholds the rights of each sovereign toe. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/23 "2012-09-20T06:54:57Z")
Oh, those kind of toe shoes. I thought you meant [these](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PointeShoes.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/24 "2012-09-20T08:23:52Z")
I think these freemen are completely correct in their beliefs. I am absolutely free. I am free to do whatever I can and want to do, bounded only by physical constraints and, as I am honourable, my own consentual contracts with others. I am free to break laws. I am free to pay no tax. I am free to resist as I am arrested. I am free to say whatever I want in court. Many is the time, as I have sat in solitary confinement, that I have rejoiced at the thought that I am free to do whatever I can and want to do, bounded only by physical constraints and, as I am honourable, my own consentual contracts with others. The physical constraints of prison cells sure are kind of limiting, though. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/25 "2012-09-20T09:46:47Z")
In a way, the Freeman has a point: Why should he suffer the onus of “personhood” that other animals do not suffer, just because he’s _Homo sapiens_ ? Perhaps he should be allowed to renounce his personhood, and acquire the legal status of, say, raccoon, dog, or catfish. Letting the SPCA rather than justice system deal with him would be cost-effective. ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/26 "2012-09-20T11:37:54Z")
While the legal crazy is of course crazy, the use of a taser there is ridiculous and a little frightening to me; people seem far too willing to accept the use of these things. There were numerous officers present; how annoying he might have been doesn’t justify the use of a taser to subdue him when he wasn’t violent and appeared to be in no danger of causing harm to anyone. Physically restraining him would have been more than adequate, and by the looks of it, not particularly difficult (it seems likely he would have shouted more “legal” nonsense, but not fought back). Add the fact that the event took place in an area where he had already been checked for weapons, and the officers had no plausible way to think he would pull out a dangerous weapon if they attempted to simply apprehend him physically. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/27 "2012-09-20T13:10:47Z")
> [@Mnemnosyne](#): > > While the legal crazy is of course crazy, the use of a taser there is ridiculous and a little frightening to me; people seem far too willing to accept the use of these things. Oh, I fully support his right to sue them for damages; I merely ask that – upon serving process on their ALL-CAPS personas and finding himself a courtroom where the flag is minus a gold fringe – he of course agrees to call the whole thing off so long as each would-be defendant simply refuses to consent to the proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/28 "2012-09-20T13:12:34Z")
There seem to be many recent examples of unnecessary tazering, but this one seems less clearcut. I won’t necessarily defend this tazering, but wonder what the bailiffs should have done instead. Two bailiffs were dedicated to physical blocking his path; if he had stayed there, taunting them for five hours, should the taxpayers afford ten man-hours to block him? Just before the tazering it appears “Robert” tried to shoulder his way past the bailiffs. Should they have let him continue to do that, perhaps wrestling with him? Perhaps an arrest for “disturbing the peace” was appropriate, but the camera dissuaded that route? My questions aren’t rhetorical; I really wonder how he should have been dealt with. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/29 "2012-09-20T13:26:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > There seem to be many recent examples of unnecessary tazering, but this one seems less clearcut. I won’t necessarily defend this tazering, but wonder what the bailiffs should have done instead. Two bailiffs were dedicated to physical blocking his path; if he had stayed there, taunting them for five hours, should the taxpayers afford ten man-hours to block him? Just before the tazering it appears “Robert” tried to shoulder his way past the bailiffs. Should they have let him continue to do that, perhaps wrestling with him? > > Perhaps an arrest for “disturbing the peace” was appropriate, but the camera dissuaded that route? > > My questions aren’t rhetorical; I really wonder how he should have been dealt with. He was dealt with in the proper manner. He attempted to force his way into a courtroom, disobeyed direct, legitimate orders from an officer of the court, and previously announced his intention to disregard the law. Alternative solutions were to beat him senseless or shoot him with a real gun. Someone who announces that they are going to willfully disregard all laws is very dangerous. To be clear, he did assault the bailiffs, he was committing a violent crime, and there’s no reason to believe he wouldn’t continue to commit violent crimes based on his declaration that he was not bound to obey the law. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/30 "2012-09-20T13:38:05Z")
He’s one guy, they are many, what would have happened in the days before tazers? They’d have wrestled him to the ground and cuffed him, while he spewed his crazy, that’s what. Don’t misunderstand me, I understand that cops take on a lot of injuries in just such circumstances. They are not obligated to get hurt, by any means. But as stated up thread, he’d been cleared for weapons. Perhaps they didn’t want to risk damaging the camera, in a scuffle, or thought it could be used as a weapon against them? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/31 "2012-09-20T13:55:12Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > He’s one guy, they are many, what would have happened in the days before tazers? > > They’d have wrestled him to the ground and cuffed him, while he spewed his crazy, that’s what. Right. And maybe dislocated his shoulder or broke his elbow or cracked a couple ribs in the process. I don’t know why people imagine that physical scuffles are safer for the scuflee than a nice zap. They aren’t. At any rate, officers of the law must use _reasonable_ force, not _minimum_ force. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/32 "2012-09-20T14:00:48Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > He’s one guy, they are many, what would have happened in the days before tazers? > > They’d have wrestled him to the ground and cuffed him, while he spewed his crazy, that’s what. What would have happened in the days before GPS? Someone trying to find an unfamiliar location would have stopped at a gas station and asked directions or looked at a map, that’s what. I’m not sure why, when technology is available to quickly and safely subdue someone, they should be obligated to use a method that carries a similar amount of risk to the aggressor (the electrical shock has a possibility of doing bad things to the target, but so does getting dogpiled by a bunch of officers while physically resisting). ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/33 "2012-09-20T14:34:23Z")
> [@Mnemnosyne](#): > > While the legal crazy is of course crazy, the use of a taser there is ridiculous and a little frightening to me; people seem far too willing to accept the use of these things. There were numerous officers present; how annoying he might have been doesn’t justify the use of a taser to subdue him when he wasn’t violent and appeared to be in no danger of causing harm to anyone. Physically restraining him would have been more than adequate, and by the looks of it, not particularly difficult (it seems likely he would have shouted more “legal” nonsense, but not fought back). Add the fact that the event took place in an area where he had already been checked for weapons, and the officers had no plausible way to think he would pull out a dangerous weapon if they attempted to simply apprehend him physically. Attempting to physically restrain him poses a greater risk of injury both to him and to the officers required to take him down. It also potentially poses a higher risk of being deemed ‘excessive force’. Now I will admit I thought the officer was a bit quick on the tazer, but they’d already been a bit too patient with this clown and it was time for the proverbial ‘slap in the face’ to wake him up to reality. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/34 "2012-09-20T14:35:39Z")
Beyond all that, I vote for a sentence of 60 days, with a mandatory tazering after every meal. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/35 "2012-09-20T14:38:29Z")
An appropriate action would have been to arrest him without zapping him. He was not causing bodily harm, and it did not appear that he would imminently cause bodily harm (that’s the policy used where I live, ymmv). As in pull out the tazer, direct him to stop, and then cuff him. The appropriate time to zap him would be up the ass during the strip search. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/36 "2012-09-20T14:40:54Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Rational Wiki on [Freeman](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman). The section on “Freeman Successes” is quite droll. 😃 Well, that was a quick read. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/37 "2012-09-20T15:03:21Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > An appropriate action would have been to arrest him without zapping him. He was not causing bodily harm, and it did not appear that he would imminently cause bodily harm (that’s the policy used where I live, ymmv). As in pull out the tazer, direct him to stop, and then cuff him. > > The appropriate time to zap him would be up the ass during the strip search. He assaulted the bailiffs. The part with the strip search is a good idea though. ---
**Author:** ![arseNal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@arseNal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arseNal)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/38 "2012-09-20T15:04:47Z")
Absolutely this tazering is warranted, otherwise we’d have been denied “Let the record show that you just battered me, and you’re using AAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/39 "2012-09-20T15:22:59Z")
Here is the sort of [policy](http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/ccaps-spcca/cew-ai/operations-17-7-eng.htm) that we have in Kanukistan: > [@](#): > > 1. > 1. > 1. The CEW must only be used in accordance with CEW training, the principles of the Incident Management/Intervention Model (IM/IM) and when a subject is causing bodily harm, or the member believes on reasonable grounds, that the subject will imminently cause bodily harm as determined by the member’s assessment of the totality of the circumstances. See also ch. 17.1. > > NOTES: > > 1. In accordance with sec. 2., CC, bodily harm is defined as any hurt or injury to a person that interferes with the health or comfort of the person and that is more than merely transient or trifling in nature. > > 2. Members’ actions must be reasonable and the force used must be necessary in the circumstances. Members must fully and accurately report and articulate their actions. Supervisors/managers will ensure all reporting requirements are complied with and appropriately evaluate all interventions to ensure compliance with RCMP directives. > > 3. > 1. > 1. All members must recognize that any use of force entails risk. > > 4. > 1. > 1. Where tactically feasible, members will use de-escalation techniques and/or other crisis intervention techniques before using a CEW. > > 5. > 1. > 1. Where tactically feasible, members will issue a verbal warning so the subject is aware that a CEW is about to be deployed. I realize that the laws and policies we have here are different from those in the video’s jurisdiction. If the matter had taken place here, policy would have been violated (1) because the nutter was not causing bodily harm, (2) there was no indication that the nutter would imminently cause bodily harm, (3) arrest was not used as in intervention to the bodily harm (not that there was any in the first place), and (4) there was no verbal warning given prior to the deployment of the taser. The Commission for Complaints against the RCMP released a [report](http://www.cpc-cpp.gc.ca/prr/rep/sir/cew-ai-12/cew-aiRp-eng.aspx#toc11) on taser use yesterday, noting that taser use has dropped significantly over the last three years. The report is worth reading, for it gives many examples of appropriate and inappropriate use. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/40 "2012-09-20T15:26:04Z")
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