# Sovereign citizen tests his theories in practice; is shocked by the results **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 19, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218 "2012-09-19T23:15:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/161 "2012-10-07T04:28:04Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I know you’re having a little fun, but my research has indicated that some (not all) Canadian freemen really do believe that “Canada Inc.” is incorporated under the laws of the United States; and that the head office (i.e. capital) of Canada Inc. is not Ottawa, but the Canadian embassy in Washington DC. To be honest, I knew about their idea that the USA was a corporation from my earlier forays into this nuttiness, but I didn’t imagine any of them actually believed Canada was incorporated under US law. These people have long since left the realm of views it’s possible to parody. Every time you come up with something you think is crazier than they are, they’ve already used it, or something crazier, in court. > [@](#): > > I wonder if that means that the huge fund that governments have attached to Canadian freemen’s birth (or berth; they use the spelling interchangeably) certificates comes from the US treasury, or the Bank of Canada? 😃 I think it means they’re ship-heads. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/162 "2012-10-07T05:56:16Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > I think it means they’re ship-heads. 😃 Oh, don’t get them started on “Admiralty Law.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/163 "2012-10-07T10:52:17Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > It typically isn’t, and it appears in many cases as if documents have been copied and pasted from American websites or similar documents originating in the US. It’s kind of amusing to be reading through court documents filed in a Canadian court by a Canadian freeman, and find an assertion of his Fourth Amendment rights, with no reference made at all to Charter s. 8. I’ve had a few American clients who believe their laws apply here (I don’t mean conflict/choice of law stuff – I mean they honestly believe that their laws trump our laws here in Kanukistan). The most recent one I dumped when he started having some poor bastard from the US embassy call me. At the moment I have a Canadian client who took about a year to get over his notion that because he nominally lives in the USA, its laws should apply in Canada (again, not a conflict/choice of law matter, just a perverse presumption that US laws always trump our laws). Funny how some folk’s minds work (or don’t work as the case may be). ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/164 "2012-10-07T13:56:13Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I’ve had a few American clients who believe their laws apply here (I don’t mean conflict/choice of law stuff – I mean they honestly believe that their laws trump our laws here in Kanukistan). The most recent one I dumped when he started having some poor bastard from the US embassy call me. At the moment I have a Canadian client who took about a year to get over his notion that because he nominally lives in the USA, its laws should apply in Canada (again, not a conflict/choice of law matter, just a perverse presumption that US laws always trump our laws). Funny how some folk’s minds work (or don’t work as the case may be). > **[Extraterritoriality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritoriality)** > > In international law, extraterritoriality or exterritoriality is the state of being exempted from the jurisdiction of local law, usually as the result of diplomatic negotiations. > > Historically, this primarily applied to individuals, as jurisdiction was usually claimed on peoples rather than on lands. Extraterritoriality can also be partly applied to physical places. For example, such is the immunity granted to diplomatic missions, military bases of foreign countries, or offices of the United N... ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/165 "2012-10-07T17:46:28Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Way back when I was a tax protester, the whole point wasn’t that it was ‘an admiralty court’ _exclusively_. Funny, when I was reading the thread, I kept being reminded of the idiot tax protesters I meet with on a weekly basis. > [@Smapti](#): > > Seems to me that their parents consented to government on their behalf by choosing to have their child acquire US citizenship by birth. I’ve seen several times now where my tax protestor clients have caused major headaches for their kids once the kids get to college age. Often times, the parents will refuse to get SS Numbers for their kids and the kids don’t find out until they are much older and trying to apply for financial aid for college. Good times. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/166 "2012-10-07T19:08:32Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I’ve had a few American clients who believe their laws apply here (I don’t mean conflict/choice of law stuff – I mean they honestly believe that their laws trump our laws here in Kanukistan). The most recent one I dumped when he started having some poor bastard from the US embassy call me. Okay, I have to know: what did the US embassy guy say to you? I’m hoping it was more of a “I’m calling so I can tell Mr. Whatzisname that I called you” rather than “I’m calling to let you know that US law applies in Canada.” Occasionally, we’ll hear about similar things here, but mostly in the context of news stories about gun seizures at the border. Some Americans visiting Canada mistakenly believe that their Second Amendment rights cover them up here, and get a nasty surprise from the CBSA and RCMP. But personally and professionally, I haven’t encountered any who believe that, in Canada, US law trumps Canadian law. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/167 "2012-10-07T19:40:16Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Occasionally, we’ll hear about similar things here, but mostly in the context of news stories about gun seizures at the border. Some Americans visiting Canada mistakenly believe that their Second Amendment rights cover them up here, and get a nasty surprise from the CBSA and RCMP. But personally and professionally, I haven’t encountered any who believe that, in Canada, US law trumps Canadian law. Do they get the guns back when they return to the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/168 "2012-10-07T19:46:54Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Do they get the guns back when they return to the U.S.? No. The guns are confiscated and destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/169 "2012-10-07T19:57:08Z")
Missed the edit window… I should add that it is possible, in some circumstances, for Americans to bring their guns into Canada legally. This generally involves getting in touch with Canadian authorities ahead of the planned trip, doing some paperwork, and paying a fee. The circumstances usually relate to such sporting activities as hunting and competition. My statement above refers to Americans who may have a gun in the car for protection, or similar reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/170 "2012-10-07T20:08:30Z")
Adding to **Spoons** ’ comment, the reason for confiscation and destruction is usually that the American in question declined to identify that he had a gun and tried to bring it in. Canada Customs guards usually ask if you have any firearms, and there are posters up that advise visitors that you need to get permission to bring them in. In most border areas, there are also often gun-locker businesses on the US side which will keep your guns safely while you’re in Canada. There are so many options to obtain permission to bring in hunting weapons, and to know the rules, and to obtain safe storage, that usually it’s pretty wilful on the part of the gun-owner found to have brought them in illegally, so not unreasonable for the guns to be confiscated, as being in violation of Canadian law. There was one case a while ago where the American in question was a police officer (not from Kalamazoo, as far as I can recall :)), who consciously brought in a gun and then discovered he was facing a criminal charge in Canada, which could have ended his career in the US. It eventually got reduced to a border offence which wasn’t considered a criminal conviction by his employer. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/171 "2012-10-07T20:23:09Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > No. The guns are confiscated and destroyed. Sometimes there’s a bit of professional courtesy unofficially granted to off-duty peace officers. To quote a CBSA friend: “If it’s an American cop, there often will be a handgun.” To get around a formal seizure, they send the gun to the officer’s commander along with a note reminding that the handgun must no be brought into Canada. I came across something a bit spooky a few years ago – a fellow who worked at the foundry that melted confiscated guns who was a bit of a gun nut (his basement was an arsenal). His most treasured possession was a partly melted handgun that he snuck out from his job. I recall that he was convicted, but I don’t think he did jail time. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/172 "2012-10-07T20:28:18Z")
What’s the statute of limitations on smuggling guns into Canada? I’m asking for a friend. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/173 "2012-10-07T20:34:15Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Okay, I have to know: what did the US embassy guy say to you? I’m hoping it was more of a “I’m calling so I can tell Mr. Whatzisname that I called you” rather than “I’m calling to let you know that US law applies in Canada.” It was down the rabbit hole for the first few minutes. The fellow from the embassy tried to hire me as the US government’s agent to represent my own client for an application to return a child to the USA under the Hague Convention on Child Abduction. He was a nice person and he knew the law well enough, but unfortunately, he did not have all the facts. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/174 "2012-10-08T15:12:29Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > While I am not in any way inclined to defend this “Freeman on the Courtroom Floor,” the flat assertions of fact above are the sort of thing generally amenable to citation of statistical proof. > > I’d be interested to see some. > [@Hello\_Again](#): > > UK Study: > _We found officer injury rates associated with M26 deployment were lower than those for CS spray and baton use. Subject injury rates were lower in M26 deployment than in deployment of CS spray, batons or police dogs._ > [http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/yjcfm/article/S1353-1131(05)00199-9/abstract](http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/yjcfm/article/S1353-1131(05)00199-9/abstract) > [@Sailboat](#): > > I’m sorry, are chemical sprays and clubbing with batons “physical restraint?” (I agree that dogs might restrain someone). > > I understood “physical restraint” to mean some big burly guys wrapping him up and hauling him off. Chemical weapons and blunt instruments and (dog _bites_ too, for that matter) seem like a different kettle of fish. One suspects that subduing a subject may be necessary (and acceptable) prior to placing the subject under physical restraint. Tasering, chemical spray, batons and dogs are tools/methods for subduing a subject so that the act of placing the subject under physical restraint can be performed with the smallest practicable amount of risk to the “big burlies.” In fact, the argument could be presented that subduing is merely a step in the process of placing under physical restraint, and that they do not need to be considered separate from one another at all. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/175 "2012-10-08T15:28:06Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > In short, law works in Canada the same way it does in the US; and as a result, the freemen’s arguments are just as worthless here as they are in the US. Thing is, **Chimera** was talking about rules of engagement for tasering, not about how well each country’s laws stands up to FOTL woo. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/176 "2012-10-09T20:12:55Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I’m sorry, are chemical sprays and clubbing with batons “physical restraint?” (I agree that dogs might restrain someone). > > I understood “physical restraint” to mean some big burly guys wrapping him up and hauling him off. Chemical weapons and blunt instruments and (dog _bites_ too, for that matter) seem like a different kettle of fish. “Physical restraint” is the end result, the suspect in cuffs being frog-marched off. How they go about getting the suspect into physical restraint, though, is a process. Now a generally cooperative suspect can be placed in physical restraint by walking up, saying “I am arresting you on charges of \_\_\_\_, turn around and place your hands on the wall.” Uncooperative suspects are a different story. They start punching you, or stabbing you, or shooting you, etc. So you need a different method. Piling a half a dozen cops onto a suspect to use weight to get physical control is prone to injury, both to the suspect and to the cops involved. Said suspect has a knife, and starts cutting/stabbing cops? What about a club? What about just being a big mothereffer who likes punching and kicking? Elbows and knees start flying, friendly fire incidents happen, concussions break out. There is a case in courts in Houston right now where cops are on trial for civil rights violations for kicking a suspect in the head after they had 4 or 5 guys on top of him. (The first cop has already been “not guilty”, and he’s on videotape clearly stomping on the guy’s head. ☹ ) Because emotions are hightened in the physical activity, personal responses are harder to control. It is easier to succumb to the inclination to get in an extra lick or two for punishment/good measure. Batons are not magic submission sticks. Sure, there are ways to use a baton that don’t involve clubbing upside the head, but they still generally involve the application of force, some risk of impact injury, and some risk of breaking things (like elbows and wrists). Sweeping someone’s legs out from under them tend to make them fall down hard, with the possible impact of skull on pavement. Not safe. Threatening with guns is an option, but what if the suspect doesn’t comply? Shoot them? Chemical sprays are intended to make the suspect willingly stop resisting or else be so concerned with the pain they cannot effectively resist, yet use pain that has no long-term damage. That is key, pain without significant injury. Breaking a finger might cause pain, but doesn’t pass the “without injury” threshhold. Tasers are supposed to work by impeding physical resistance by jamming the nerve signals both to prevent conscious control from working and to tire out the muscles so they cannot respond effectively afterwards. > **[How Stun Guns Work](https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/gadgets/other-gadgets/stun-gun2.htm)** > > Stun guns fall into the category of non-lethal weaponry -- they can incapacitate a person without causing permanent damage. Find out how different types of stun guns work to immobilize their target. Thus, the suspect is physically incapable of resisting for a few moments, and that is the window to exert stronger restraint and gain control, handcuffs, etc. It is also generally persuasive that continued resistance will not be pleasant. Usually, this is also mostly harmless. Thus, in principle, Tasers should be much safer for everyone when the suspect is non-compliant. However, there are people with conditions that are susceptible to the high voltage shocks, and some people thrash or otherwise try to resist, which leads to cops repeating or continuing to shock the suspects. And some non-aggressive actions by the suspect getting tased can be interpreted as resistance, thus leading to sustained tasering. And injuries can happen just by virtue of the suspect collapsing and/or flailing about. Good tasering policy should not make Tasers the first response, but rather a reasoned response that allows room for negotiation and persuasion as the first response. Short-cutting to Tasering just because you don’t feel like talking to the suspect is, unfortunately, too common of a practice. Hopefully, law enforcement agencies are scrutinizing and adjusting their policies and training. By the way, the new device I saw on the news is a pepper gun. It uses the same agent in pepper spray, but packs it in a gel that is fired at high speed from a gun-like device. Rather than a thin stream that can be avoided, it comes out like a shot, and is more targetable, and harder to evade. There’s less risk of blowback on the user. They also make a civilian version. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/177 "2012-10-09T20:22:39Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Thing is, **Chimera** was talking about rules of engagement for tasering, not about how well each country’s laws stands up to FOTL woo. Your quote is accidentally misattributed. The actual comment was from **Spoons** in post 150. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/178 "2012-10-09T21:25:39Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > “Physical restraint” is the end result A good long post, but people also have some misconceptions about other aspects of their use. I used to do armed overnights at a national chain for a short period of time about 4-5 years ago. I was asked not to return to one in an inner city neighborhood after 10 drunken gang members got into a fight and I refused to wade in and bust heads. At the time all I had was a gun. I peeled one drunk off the back of another because he was choking him out from behind and shoved him (with some effort) out the door. By the time I got back to the others, the fight was over. My response to the assistant manager being angry about me not wading in (my response being backed up by my company), was that 1\> I cannot blindly assault people just because he wants me to, and 2\> One 40-something with a gun on his hip trying to ‘bust heads’ on TEN drunken 20-somethings? How fast do you want them to end up with my gun in the middle of your place? 3\> The goal is de-escalation, not escalation. After that, I was provided with a baton and mace. But there too, mace is an ‘outside’ weapon. If I were to use it in a crowded restaurant, it would clear the place and they wouldn’t be able to re-open until they did some cleaning and airing out. So add ‘loss of business’ to the cost of using that for inside crowd control. In a court house as the OP incident, you’re potentially talking some serious inconvenience if they have to clear the area even to air it out. You may also have innocents who happened to be in the same area bothered by the spray and requiring assistance or to go home (loss of work issues) because of it. I did see it used once at that place, outside the doors. Former Spec Ops turned security supervisor sprayed the hell out of a mouthy punk, starting with the top and back of his head, from less than a foot away. It certainly did nothing to disable the kid. He did leave, but he came back cleaned up an hour or so later and made another pest of himself. So really, none of these are panaceas to the issue of controlling people who are uncooperative. They are merely tools, each of which has their own place and time of use, and rules of engagement. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/179 "2012-10-09T21:27:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s not all of it, of course - soverign/freebirds are also the sort of people who don’t understand fractional reserve banking and so that’s why they think they don’t have to pay back debts - but fundamental innocense about how systems work is a big part of what makes it possible for people to grab on to these fringe beliefs. Yep. Frustratingly I have one of these people in my family. ( It’s the person who was recently banned after littering the board with insane conspiracy stuff after I introduced them to the place) Anyways..Freemen on the land stuff? Check. Wild ideas about the federal reserve? check. 9/11 Truther? check. Whats frightening is watching the mental gymnastics they use to tie it all together into a coherent (to them) world view. Then throw in Kennedy conspiracy, Rothschilds purposely caused the Great Depression and on and on. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218/180 "2012-10-09T22:02:24Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Batons are not magic submission sticks. That would make a great bureaucratic euphemism though. “The officers applied their submission sticks until compliance was assured.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizen-tests-his-theories-in-practice-is-shocked-by-the-results/635218.md?page=10)