# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Holy\_Basil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c0e974/32.png) [@Holy\_Basil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holy_Basil)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/341 "2023-09-19T05:33:44Z")
Sorry for the double post, I can’t find any way to delete one. Mods? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/342 "2023-09-19T05:39:45Z")
How could anyone think this is the face of a queen? [![](https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/12/590x/secondary/Camilla-Parker-Bowles-split-1342293.jpg) ](https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/12/590x/secondary/Camilla-Parker-Bowles-split-1342293.jpg) That someone who smirks can become a cult leader (or queen) doesn’t surprise me. That someone who has no obvious advantages at all can get idiots to follow her down the rabbit hole amazes me. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/343 "2023-09-19T08:07:25Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > How could anyone think this is the face of a queen? _Camilla and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day_ ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/344 "2023-09-19T08:22:30Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > How could anyone think this is the face of a queen? You should’ve seen Marie Antoinette with no makeup on. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/345 "2023-09-19T10:09:15Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > How could anyone think this is the face of a queen? An old woman looks like an old woman. Stop the presses. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/346 "2023-09-19T10:35:45Z")
You understand my comment was sarcastic? ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/347 "2023-09-19T11:22:27Z")
You mean The UK doesn’t sell that face on the head of a dildo? Now we’ll never know if that nose, that chin, those wrinkles (cast in hard plastic) could ever possibly stimulate any G-spot to orgasm… ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/348 "2023-09-19T11:31:07Z")
Well this took a nasty fucking turn. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/349 "2023-09-19T11:52:36Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Well this took a nasty fucking turn “Well this took a nasty fucking turn”; title of your SovCit encounter video. Sorry, I’ll see myself out. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/350 "2023-09-19T13:29:26Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > That someone who smirks can become a cult leader (or queen) doesn’t surprise me. That someone who has no obvious advantages at all can get idiots to follow her down the rabbit hole amazes me. I’d like to introduce you to a certain disgraced former high-level US politician. Perhaps you’ve not heard of him Down Under? 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/351 "2023-09-19T14:11:54Z")
By the time he started taking acolytes down rabbit holes he was both rich and famous. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/352 "2023-09-19T16:57:48Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > Which brings up the somewhat serious question, is there a left wing or woo equivalent of Sovereign Citizen? I know “left” and “woo” are not the same, and Sov Cit could even be argued as a form of bureaucratic woo. There is the [moorish sovereign citizen movement](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/moorish-sovereign-citizens) which combines black nationalism with soverign citizenship, and could be probably classified as left wing. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/353 "2023-09-20T00:22:57Z")
I’m pretty sure this could be classified as “SovCit in action”. It’s not completely clear because he isn’t terribly coherent, but “sovereign” does crop up several times. Apparently he’s also a “master and commander” who owns the police and controls the military. I don’t think there’s much more to understanding the SovCit mentality than this. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/GIS02nK7XA0/maxresdefault.jpg "Man Thinks He’s Above The Law And Has A Complete Mental Breakdown") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIS02nK7XA0) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/354 "2023-09-20T00:29:19Z")
Insanity is a condition worthy of pity. SovCitery is a condition worthy of contempt. When you put them together in one confused package, it’s a real dilemma how to react. But the officers seem to have the right idea. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/355 "2023-09-20T00:56:49Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > understanding the SovCit mentality _What_ mentality? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/356 "2023-09-20T06:02:27Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > _What_ mentality? **Somebody’s** making it up, it’s coming from somewhere. Those repeating the mantras like some kind of magic “control the cops” spell are just mindlessly performing by rote, but there is a person or persons coming up with that shit to start. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/357 "2023-09-20T09:33:32Z")
Probably the same type who came up with Q and all of that malarkey. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/358 "2023-09-20T15:33:41Z")
Here’s [Wikipedia’s take](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement) on the sovcit origins: > The movement, which appeared in the early 1970s, is American in origin and exists primarily in the United States, though it has counterparts in other countries: the similar [freeman on the land movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land_movement) emerged during the 2000s in Canada before spreading to other [Commonwealth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Nations) countries.[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement#cite_note-Netolitzky20182-4) Expanded details under the “History” section of the article, which points out the bigotry uderpinnning the movement’s origins: > The concept of a “sovereign citizen” whose rights are being unfairly denied originated in 1971 in the [Posse Comitatus movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_(organization)) as a teaching of [Christian Identity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity) minister [William Potter Gale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Potter_Gale). The early form of the sovereign citizen movement was thus strongly associated with [white supremacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy) and [antisemitic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_United_States) ideologies.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement#cite_note-SPLC2022-3)[[9]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement#cite_note-carey-9) The ideology has since metastasized to infect all sorts of others who perceive themselves as downtrodden by The Man. The whole article is a sobering assessment of how corrosively spreading the movement has become, and how its potential for chaos and violence has expanded. These folks are very much not just harmless loons. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/359 "2023-09-20T17:14:35Z")
I love it when they call themselves US Nationals. Being a national is a step down from being a citizen but you are still an American and > The significant differences between a U.S. citizen and a U.S. national are voting rights and the eligibility to hold public office. U.S. nationals are not allowed to vote in federal elections or serve in a federal office. So being a national still means you need to follow the law. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/360 "2023-09-20T19:27:01Z")
So they’re asserting that they have _fewer_ rights than The Man is willing to acknowledge they do. Got it! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=19)