# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/21 "2016-10-24T21:02:38Z")
fringefringefringefringefringefrinfringefringefringefringefringefringefringe fringeIt would help if we didn’t prosecute them in military tribunalsfringe fringefringefringefringefringefringefringefrinfringefringefringefringefringe ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/22 "2016-10-24T21:03:39Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Never go full retard son. Laughing at assaults of innocent people and movie quotes. Is this a frat party? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/23 "2016-10-24T21:32:43Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Laughing at assaults of innocent people and movie quotes. Is this a frat party? No, but the Sovereign Citizens are a Three Stooges routine, collectively. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/24 "2016-10-24T21:34:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Laughing at assaults of innocent people… It’s their stupidity that we’re laughing at. Offered as supporting evidence: we’re also laughing at you, even though you’re not being assaulted. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/25 "2016-10-24T21:43:45Z")
Where is the innocent person who is assaulted? Failure to follow a police order can be considered [a crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_to_obey_a_police_order) in certain instances. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/26 "2016-10-24T22:08:42Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > So this really exists? This group of people really exists? I just learned about this today. Before tonight I had no idea of and never heard of sovereign citizens before. This is real? > The mind boggles. I am firmly convinced that, if this a real group, that they were either put here on earth for the sole purpose of entertaining others when they finally get the good smackdown that they so deserve…or… are real life masochists who deliberately troll others just so that they can get an abusive beatdown. > > I took great delight in [watching](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCozh_vbYdM) [videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-32-m0_-Sg) [like](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKn6ftuNKfY) [these](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUgmc7kKqOI), Basically “sovereign citizens getting owned”. I could watch this stuff all day, hours of it. That moment when they finally get what they deserve; whether that’s being tasered or arrested or handcuffed or held down forcefully–all for being a complete asshat, jerk twat–it is SO satisfying. Well, they have been around since at least the 1980s. But yeah, they didnt reach public consciousness until the 1990s. Here is some fun reading: [http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss1.html](http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss1.html) [http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss2.html#sovereign](http://archive.adl.org/mwd/suss2.html#sovereign) "\*City of Salina v. Wisden (Utah 1987) 737 P2d 981 (“We will consider Mr. Wisden’s contention that the … [traffic] court lacked jurisdiction to try him because his status as a ‘free man’ exempts him from the motor vehicle code because he did not consent to be bound by it. We address this issue only because it is frequently raised and should be finally settled. We reject his claim… Consent to laws is not a prerequisite to their enforceability against individuals. … In order for our scheme of ordered liberties to succeed, we must all obey valid laws, even those with which we do not agree; a man cannot exempt himself from the operation of a law simply by declaring that he does not consent to have it apply to him.” - ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/27 "2016-10-24T22:10:00Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > No, but the Sovereign Citizens are a Three Stooges routine, collectively. Insult to the Stooges. Even they werent this stupid. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/28 "2016-10-24T22:46:09Z")
“Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake.” I kinda feel sorry for poor Idle … “Before tonight I had no idea of and never heard of sovereign citizens before.” It’s too late to go back now … you have my commiserations … ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/29 "2016-10-24T22:50:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Laughing at assaults of innocent people and movie quotes. Is this a frat party? Not all of the cops did, but many of them showed pretty good restraint. Also the guy who started screaming ‘help, call the police’ and the police responded ‘sir we are the police’, you have to find that a little funny. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/30 "2016-10-24T23:21:45Z")
Thanks for all the links, I’ve been out of the loop for awhile. I see I have a lot to catch up on. I’m almost wishing (now) I didn’t know about this stuff again. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/31 "2016-10-24T23:30:00Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Never go full retard son. Now that was comedy gold. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/32 "2016-10-24T23:43:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You enjoy seeing nonviolent people physically assaulted. Re-evaluate yourself. Wait. I thought police officers were the guardians of the law and we libruls were horrible for pointing out their crimes on videos. Now you claim they are assaulting peaceful citizens. What happened to “they’re resisting arrest! It’s okay!” If those other videos went like this, none of us would be complaining. Unfortunately, people tend to wind up shot or dead. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/33 "2016-10-25T00:02:13Z")
I don’t why, but there is something a little satisfying in watching some lackwit get tazed after ignoring repeated orders to step back and insisting on entering a restricted space. ---
**Author:** ![blainer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@blainer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blainer)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/34 "2016-10-25T00:07:10Z")
P. Barnes is a goddamn American hero. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/35 "2016-10-25T01:28:50Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Never go full retard son. Too late. Much too late. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/36 "2016-10-25T02:02:53Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > So this really exists? This group of people really exists? I just learned about this today. Before tonight I had no idea of and never heard of sovereign citizens before. This is real? > The mind boggles. I am firmly convinced that, if this a real group, that they were either put here on earth for the sole purpose of entertaining others when they finally get the good smackdown that they so deserve…or… are real life masochists who deliberately troll others just so that they can get an abusive beatdown. > > I took great delight in [watching](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCozh_vbYdM) [videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-32-m0_-Sg) [like](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKn6ftuNKfY) [these](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUgmc7kKqOI), Basically “sovereign citizens getting owned”. I could watch this stuff all day, hours of it. That moment when they finally get what they deserve; whether that’s being tasered or arrested or handcuffed or held down forcefully–all for being a complete asshat, jerk twat–it is SO satisfying. Ok so I was expecting police cam videos… but these guys are taking videos of them getting arrested and posting them online somehow??? I mean… what? Why??? ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/37 "2016-10-25T02:35:40Z")
Sort of related, Wesley Snipes spent 3 years in prison for not paying his income taxes based on this defense: > **[Tax protester 861 argument](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_861_argument)** > > The 861 argument is a statutory argument used by tax protesters in the United States, which interprets a portion of the Internal Revenue Code as invalidating certain applications of income tax. The argument has uniformly been held by courts to be incorrect, and persons who have cited the argument as a basis for refusing to pay income taxes have been penalized, and in some cases jailed. > Internal Revenue Code section 861, entitled "Income from sources within the United States", is a provision of t... ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/38 "2016-10-25T02:41:55Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Ok so I was expecting police cam videos… but these guys are taking videos of them getting arrested and posting them online somehow??? I mean… what? Why??? They _really do_ think that they are in the right and are presenting “evidence” of police overstepping their authority by enforcing such things as speed limits. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/39 "2016-10-25T02:48:02Z")
> [@White SIFL](#): > > Sort of related, Wesley Snipes spent 3 years in prison for not paying his income taxes based on this defense: > > [Tax protester 861 argument - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_861_argument) I prefer to think that he spent one year in prison for each _Blade_ movie. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/40 "2016-10-25T03:17:48Z")
I thought this stuff was common knowledge on these boards. I guess there really haven’t been all that many related threads, it just seems like it because the few that there are have been so active and long-lived that, if you do follow them, it seems like they dominate the board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=3)