# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/41 "2016-10-25T03:28:58Z")
Plenty are mostly-harmless morons, but sovereign citizens kill [a LOT](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/25/sovereign-citizens-are-america-s-top-cop-killers.html) [of cops](https://www.facingsouth.org/2016/07/sovereign-citizens-leave-trail-anti-government-violence-across-south). ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/42 "2016-10-25T03:29:11Z")
> [@White SIFL](#): > > Sort of related, Wesley Snipes spent 3 years in prison for not paying his income taxes based on this defense: > > [Tax protester 861 argument - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_861_argument) Crap … I better check my returns … ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/43 "2016-10-25T04:15:37Z")
Sovereign citizens think that if the law says something, \*it is law, \*to the utmost extent that that law can possibly be \*technically \*true - all reasonableness thrown out the window. It’s akin to as if someone argued that every American should be allowed to possess nuclear weapons, anthrax, VX and sarin in their homes, because “the 2nd Amendment says _ **the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.** _ Doesn’t matter if these weapons can kill millions and devastate the world; the right to bear arms\* shall not be infringed.\* Shall not be infringed! Shall not be infringed! Shall not be infringed!” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/44 "2016-10-25T04:17:09Z")
I would, but I don’t wish to create joinder with you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/45 "2016-10-25T04:43:41Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You enjoy seeing nonviolent people physically assaulted. Re-evaluate yourself. They’re not getting assaulted. They’re getting arrested with the force necessary to effect the arrest of someone resisting such arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/46 "2016-10-25T05:03:01Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I don’t why, but there is something a little satisfying in watching some lackwit get tazed after ignoring repeated orders to step back and insisting on entering a restricted space. Here. Just in case anyone has missed it. It makes me cry happy tears. [Trying to enter a courtroom](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVbiefMdNU) P. Barnes is a hero indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/47 "2016-10-25T05:06:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Sovereign citizens think that if the law says something, \*it is law, \*to the utmost extent that that law can possibly be \*technically \*true - all reasonableness thrown out the window. > > It’s akin to as if someone argued that every American should be allowed to possess nuclear weapons, anthrax, VX and sarin in their homes, because “the 2nd Amendment says _ **the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.** _ Doesn’t matter if these weapons can kill millions and devastate the world; the right to bear arms\* shall not be infringed.\* Shall not be infringed! Shall not be infringed! Shall not be infringed!” No, this is not particularly accurate. While it’s true that sovereign citizens invest their view with “utmost extent” fervor, they do not apply this view to “the law.” Instead, they apply it to a weird set of beliefs that bear only slight resemblance to the law. Nothing in “the law,” supports the concept of ‘creating joinder,’ or that there is any application of the Uniform Commercial Code where they use it. It goes well beyond merely hyper-technical application of existing law. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/48 "2016-10-25T05:11:03Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You enjoy seeing nonviolent people physically assaulted. Re-evaluate yourself. How far do you go with this? If someone commits a non-violent but serious crime against you then simply refuses to submit to justice, you think the police should just shrug and say “well it wouldn’t be OK to use force to arrest the guy because he’s non-violent”? And the enjoyment comes from seeing anti-social assholes get their just desserts. I could respect someone who said “I eschew all obligations towards and benefits available from the government”. But these assholes are happy to take all benefits but shrug off their obligations. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/49 "2016-10-25T05:29:06Z")
Breivik, the guy who killed 77 people in Norway in 2011, has also tried to use SovCit tactics. It’s a bunch of nuttery, but it is very dangerous nuttery. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/50 "2016-10-25T05:46:35Z")
This clip of a [judge dealing with a sovcit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnSd-E3Hb3Y)is very funny. The judge is just perfect. He deals with the sovcit pretty much on his terms but runs rings around him. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/51 "2016-10-25T10:15:52Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > One of the unspoken tenants of SovCit _Tenets_. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/52 "2016-10-25T10:16:34Z")
Reddit has a whole sub dedicated to it, [r/amibeingdetained.](https://www.reddit.com/r/amibeingdetained/) I’ve seen all sorts of crazy CTs on the net but I’ve never seen where these people get their worldview. They all talk the same about gold fringed flags, maritime courts, joinder, traveling, legal strawmen/persons, and on and on. There’s an assembly line somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/53 "2016-10-25T11:09:58Z")
To me one thing that’s particularly weird is how often they misapply things, from using the Uniform Code of Commerce to talk about speed limits to using it in the wrong country. Rationally I understand it’s the same issue as with people trying to use Gaussians on distributions which are clearly asymmetrical and designed to be so (I don’t have pet peeves, I have a whole pet shop of peeves), but it still makes my brain scream “wrong application you morons!” ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/54 "2016-10-25T11:15:46Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Reddit has a whole sub dedicated to it, [r/amibeingdetained.](https://www.reddit.com/r/amibeingdetained/) What an unfortunately named forum. “Am I being detained?” is a perfectly legitimate question to ask when you’re not sure whether you’re free to leave a police encounter, and it’s one which civil rights groups such as the ACLU advise people to ask. It could be that some sovereign citizen loons have latched on to this and are parroting it even in circumstances where it is obviously inappropriate. Even if so, I don’t think it’s a great idea for Redditors to tarnish the phrase by strongly associating it with legalistic mumbo-jumbo. Couldn’t they have picked some more obviously crazy SC catchphrase to name their sub? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/55 "2016-10-25T12:08:37Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > This clip of a [judge dealing with a sovcit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnSd-E3Hb3Y)is very funny. The judge is just perfect. He deals with the sovcit pretty much on his terms but runs rings around him. That was great. The judge was extremely respectful and patient and yet didn’t let the guy get away with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/56 "2016-10-25T12:45:09Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Where is the innocent person who is assaulted? Failure to follow a police order can be considered [a crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_to_obey_a_police_order) in certain instances. And can get you shot dead if you aren’t white. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/57 "2016-10-25T13:23:59Z")
Just heard a new strategy. [One of those compilations](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUgmc7kKqOI) had a “free inhabitant” patiently explaining to a cop “Did you know that speeding is not a crime in the state of Texas? If you check, umm, it’s in umm … well, it’s a code.” ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/58 "2016-10-25T14:36:07Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Ok so I was expecting police cam videos… but these guys are taking videos of them getting arrested and posting them online somehow??? I mean… what? Why??? They think these videos are proof of their _success_. No, seriously. If you go to one of their fora, you’ll see people bragging about “That cop couldn’t refute his lawful arguments, so he had to resort to physical violence!” (“Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help I’m being repressed!” is heavily implied). And yeah, they’re serious. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/59 "2016-10-25T14:59:56Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > This clip of a [judge dealing with a sovcit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnSd-E3Hb3Y)is very funny. The judge is just perfect. He deals with the sovcit pretty much on his terms but runs rings around him. I would never have that much patience. If I were the judge, the video would have been about 3 minutes long. “I don’t care” “I don’t care” “Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass ‘Go’” “Buhbye, next”. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/60 "2016-10-25T15:13:41Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > This clip of a [judge dealing with a sovcit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnSd-E3Hb3Y)is very funny. The judge is just perfect. He deals with the sovcit pretty much on his terms but runs rings around him. If you listen to the very end, the judge mentions that several years ago some soveriegn citizens posted a $100 million judgement against him on his door. I have to wonder if they truly believed that they could collect on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=4)