# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/581 "2023-10-28T04:27:47Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > … What I can’t understand is how the delusion can persist after the first arrest and conviction, but apparently it can and it does. Some of these loons are persistent repeat offenders. … The SovCit probably feels that he/she didn’t get the magic words _exactly_ right, which gave the cop an out. Kind of like the reverse of the Perfect Master’s note on the [Riot Act](https://www.straightdope.com/21343879/where-does-to-read-the-riot-act-come-from): > At one raucous gathering in 1830, an unfortunate British official omitted the words “God save the king” and the whole bunch got off scot free. But try, try again. Or to quote Dr Claw: > I’ll get you next time, Gadget. Next time. … ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/582 "2023-10-28T05:07:44Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > The SovCit probably feels that he/she didn’t get the magic words _exactly_ right, which gave the cop an out. Honestly, I doubt this is it. The most likely thing going on in their heads (I purt near said _thinking_, but that’s a stretch) is that the cops and the judges are breaking their oaths and the law. The sovereign citizen loons did everything right, and nothing wrong. But, of course, they know these encounters will end up in arrest. They are looking for that. Yeah, they’ll blame the cops, but they do want the confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/583 "2023-10-28T05:58:52Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Both can be true, as motivations vary with the individual. There is one video that comes from the sovcit’s own dashcam, where there is a cop car in sight and he deliberately drives so as to provoke a confrontation. Some others are clearly being deliberately provocative. And others still are calm and respectful and seem genuinely astonished that they’re actually being arrested. Even in the realm of lunacy, it takes all kinds, as the saying goes. Yeah, I haven’t seen as many provacative ones as you have so I can’t speak to that. As I said, the ones I’ve seen have been seemed more delusional in that they seem to believe that their arguments will work. The first amendment auditors seem to be the most confrontational. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/584 "2023-10-28T07:25:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > The irony of the fee schedule is > “I don’t contract to the state. That’s why I don’t have a license or registration. Therefore I do not have obey your laws.” > “Here is my fee schedule. This is a binding contract between the State and me.” Ah, but they do have a contract. At least, in their minds, they do. They draft a NOICUR: Notice Of Intent and Claim Of Right, which they send to the President, the Prime Minister, the King, whoever they feel is in charge somehow. Notarized, of course, which makes it, to them, somehow legal. This is where I balked, as described above. I wasn’t going to notarize any such thing. Anyway, in the NOICUR is quasi-contract wording, which basically states, “You have two weeks to respond to and/or refute/renegotiate this contract.” The NOICUR further states that if no response is received (and it never is), then a contract is deemed to have been formed, and the government and its actors (police, for example) are on the hook for the amount(s) in the fee schedule, should they have any business with the SovCit. Thing is, a contract cannot be formed this way. Both parties must be in agreement, and the silence of one party cannot indicate agreement. Yes, I have studied SovCits’/FOTLs’ crapola. And that’s all it is: crapola. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/585 "2023-10-28T08:08:53Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > The first amendment auditors seem to be the most confrontational. What’s kind of sad is that we get them at my work, so often we have to be trained in how to handle them. I don’t necessarily mean the full-blown SovCit folks, but the auditors who come in and film everything you do. We are government so we have to just let them do their thing. They’re doing nothing illegal. I don’t necessarily have a problem with them in spirit. It’s just that I find it sad that someone will spend so much of their time to film people doing really mundane and frankly boring clerical stuff in the hopes of catching… I dunno what they’re hoping to record. I’m rarely out in the public areas anyway as an IT guy. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/586 "2023-10-28T12:12:19Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I don’t necessarily mean the full-blown SovCit folks, but the auditors who come in and film everything you do. We are government so we have to just let them do their thing. County Gov. here. Yeah we had to put up ‘Authorized Personnel Only’ signs all over the place, and lock our department doors. We didn’t put up with that shit. Their take was that the county buildings where public property and they can go anywhere they want. Try that in a police station or military base, and see how far you get. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/587 "2023-10-28T12:52:43Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > What I can’t understand is how the delusion can persist after the first arrest and conviction, but apparently it can and it does. Some of these loons are persistent repeat offenders. For some of them, it literally is mental illness. Many years ago in the UK, there was a woman who started down this path, and every time she lost in court, it just reinforced her delusions. They often say things like, “They couldn’t refute my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!” She ended up doing a significant sentence in jail, and basically lost everything in her life, and yet still claimed she was the winner in every case. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/588 "2023-10-28T15:41:27Z")
Yeah the cops in the video seemed very patient on the whole. What makes me mad is when eventually the police have to pull someone out of the car and the SC starts yelling “Police Brutality!” and “You’re hurting me!”. They’re play-acting or simply insane, which makes lilfe hard for the people who really ARE being subject to police brutality and are genuinely crying for help. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2023, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/589 "2023-10-28T16:32:27Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > They’re play-acting or simply insane, which makes lilfe hard for the people who really ARE being subject to police brutality and are genuinely crying for help. Their ridiculous claims of imaginary rights based on nonsense also makes it more difficult for people asserting claims of real rights based on actual laws. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/590 "2023-10-29T00:14:41Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > For some of them, it literally is mental illness. Many years ago in the UK, there was a woman who started down this path, and every time she lost in court, it just reinforced her delusions. They often say things like, “They couldn’t refute my arguments, so they just threw me in jail!” She ended up doing a significant sentence in jail, and basically lost everything in her life, and yet still claimed she was the winner in every case. was her name Donna Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/591 "2023-10-29T17:22:27Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > For **some** of them, it literally is mental illness. Meh, I’d go with vast majority. I spose the [Queen of Canada](https://youtu.be/4yxArQ4OGIU?t=716) most likely qualifies. ETA: At 14:21, you can enjoy her followers re-working Boney M’s “Rasputin” in honour of the dingbat, who’s arranged to have that song played continuously, without stop, during ten-hour bus trips. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/592 "2023-10-29T17:36:55Z")
Respect to the Queen of Canada … in the hierarchy of batshit crazy, sovereign **monarch** definitely outranks a mere sovereign citizen! Bonus points to one with her own theme song! 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/593 "2023-10-29T17:50:32Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > Boney M’s “Rasputin” in honour of the dingbat, who’s arranged to have that song played continuously, without stop, during ten-hour bus trips. Jayzus! No wonder her follower’s brains have turned to mush. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/594 "2023-10-29T19:13:36Z")
In the land of the brain dead, the one-brain-celled person is queen. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/595 "2023-10-29T20:26:34Z")
> [@ratatoskK](#): > > What makes me mad is when eventually the police have to pull someone out of the car and the SC starts yelling “Police Brutality!” and “You’re hurting me!”. I keep hoping that I’ll watch one where, at the moment in truth in question, he starts yelling “Help help, I’m being repressed!” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/596 "2023-10-29T20:44:08Z")
Anyone with enough on the ball to make that reference probably wouldn’t be a sovcit in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/597 "2023-11-02T17:08:00Z")
Yeah. I suspect there’s very little overlap between sovcitzs and _Monty Python_ fans. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/598 "2023-11-04T14:28:45Z")
Too bad. _“Come see the violence inherent in the system!”_ would be appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/599 "2023-11-04T19:02:45Z")
The peasants in _Holy Grail_ were on much firmer legal, political and social ground than the sovcitzs are. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/600 "2023-11-15T02:31:03Z")
Florida man and Sovereign Citizens - two for one. > **[Florida Sovereign Citizens Learn The Hard Way They Do In Fact Need A Driver's...](https://jalopnik.com/florida-sovereign-citizens-still-need-drivers-license-1851020258)** > > Sovereign citizens' arguments never work with law enforcement, but that doesn't mean they won't try. As you can expect, things didn’t go as planned for the SovCits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=31)