# Sovereign Citizens-- Please tell me this is fake **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2016, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572 "2016-10-24T07:38:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/721 "2023-12-18T14:28:38Z")
Because I’m in Accounts Receivable. I was there at the office strictly to process checks. If we receive certain specific types of correspondence, we forward to the appropriate departments. Otherwise we’d be scanning and forwarding every post-it on a check that says, “here’s your damned money, I hope you choke on it” or “You people are theieves and LIERS!!!”\* - Actual spelling on a note we received ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/722 "2023-12-18T20:00:10Z")
They are smrt. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/723 "2023-12-19T00:33:39Z")
I’ve seen lots of videos of these folks messing with the local police, Sheriff etc. But I’ve never seen one trying to enter the US from Mexico or Canada and claiming they don’t need ID or passport. How about boarding a plane without Real ID? Or entering a federal building. Any links would be entertaining I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/724 "2023-12-19T03:43:45Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > Or entering a federal building Those are first amendment auditors. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/725 "2023-12-19T04:20:30Z")
One of the most interesting aspects is how the whole thang continues despite never working. It gives you an insight into how quacks can go on handing out “treatments” that don’t work, century after century, without anyone catching on. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/726 "2023-12-19T05:21:25Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > One of the most interesting aspects is how the whole thang continues despite never working. Rocky and bullwinkle: “Again? That trick never works!” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/727 "2023-12-19T05:44:09Z")
> [@GaryM](#): > > Or entering a federal building. > > Any links would be entertaining I’m sure. How about entering a courthouse? Sadly, [this one’s of low definition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVbiefMdNU), but it’s still quite entertaing! ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/728 "2023-12-19T05:49:25Z")
No, it doesn’t work and it won’t, because they refuse to believe that it never works. They just didn’t put the magic words in the right order, or they provided a thumbprint in the wrong colour ink, or they wrote “A4V” on a bill instead of “Accepted For Value,” or somesuch nonsense. They want so badly to believe that it will work, and the only reason that it didn’t last time, was because they made some little mistake. Never mind, they won’t make that mistake again, and it’ll work next time, for sure. Except it never does. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/729 "2023-12-19T07:17:00Z")
Nah. They believe the only reason it didn’t work is because the people they’re reciting their incantations to “violated the law”, “denied them their rights”, etc. It’s never that the sovcit lunatic is, in fact, wrong or did anything at wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/730 "2023-12-19T07:22:04Z")
You hit the nail on the head! ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/731 "2023-12-19T08:14:13Z")
No message. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/732 "2023-12-19T10:27:45Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Nah. They believe the only reason it didn’t work is because the people they’re reciting their incantations to “violated the law”, “denied them their rights”, etc. I think that’s true in the vast majority of cases. “They couldn’t counter my argument, so they had to lock me up,” or some other similar nonsense. But you’d still think the fact that they’re gonna lose, whether “right” or wrong, would turn this into a practical decision for them next time. “Do you want to be right, or do you want to go home?” cops used to say (maybe they still do). I know, I know, crazies gonna crazy. Still… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/733 "2023-12-19T12:19:46Z")
Here are a few things I personally think we should note about the sovcits. Perhaps one of the board’s current or former LEOs can state if I’m off base with these. First, they are not actually anarchists. They are not out to chuck laws; they (going by their mantras/incantations) seem to believe the laws do apply, but the laws being enforced on them at the moment in question, in their belief, specifically do not apply to them. They believe the laws _ **provide** _ for that exemption for them. Next, we cannot discount the depth of their desire for their beliefs to be true. The more they suffer, the more involved, the more invested they are in this belief system. And this brings us to the reason they’re trying to get pulled over. They’re the ones recording most of their encounters with law enforcement. You may have noticed the conversation with the camera (as I like to call it) many of them are having while the police officer is on the way to their car. What’s the purpose of the conversation with the camera? Basically, it’s like a processional before a mass begins. It’s setting the stage for the ~~congregation~~ _actual_ audience of the recording. An aware person, i.e. not a sovcit, might ask, “So, hey, Monty; who exactly is that audience?” Like a good performance, there is more than one group in the audience this is for. One group are those who are the low level, not actually fully invested in this insanity, but are there to cheer on their heroes. These are the ones living their fantasy life vicariously through those we see in the videos provided by law enforcement, courts, and the purported heroes themselves. The _other_ group in the audience is comprised of those who (a) are making money off the slightly invested, (b) the movement’s shamans, and (c) the fully invested. Group (a) are those who sell the paraphenalia to the slightly invested souls. You might notice they don’t accept sovcit script or anything other than actual government created money. They’re putting out the plates, stickers, identification documents, and other pseudo-legal accouterments, all for profit. Group (b) might seem to be like Group (a) but Group (b) has managed to evolve somewhat. I don’t recall seeing this before the last month or so, although I have been paying attention to these loons for quite some time now. The shamans are now providing real-time “legal” advice during group (a)'s encounter with LEOs. That’s another reason for the conversation with the camera during the LEO’s approach to the vehicle. I don’t know if the shaman’s speed-dial real-time “service” is free or not, but it does provide for some great performance in some of the videos. Now you should ask, “What about group (c)?” As I said, those are the ones who are fully invested in this worldview. They are the ones who have viewed, read, or participated slightly in this stuff, but then instead of facing facts, have morphed into True Believerstm. They might seem to be amusing, but they are dangerous, lethally dangers. They have killed in the past and will likely kill again. The more of the lightly invested (aka _the performers_) and those in Group (a) who buy into this view, the more likely the ranks of Group (c) will grow, and that means the more likely more innocent people will be murdered by these sovcits. Again, they may _seem_ amusing, but they’re not. They’re lethal. Earlier, I posted a link to a video showing one of these performers getting tased when he was not complying with lawful orders of court officers. I’ve also seen, as I’m sure many you have, videos of LEOs first telling a suspect they’re going to get tased. I really wish the nomenclature was that from the first instance I can recall in literature (including TV series as literature) of such a device: Star Trek’s agonizer from _Mirror, Mirror_. ISTM it might be cool to hear the LEO warn a sovcit, “You’re going to get agonized!” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/734 "2023-12-19T20:48:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@GaryM](#): > > > > Or entering a federal building. > > > > Any links would be entertaining I’m sure. > > How about entering a courthouse? Sadly, [this one’s of low definition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVbiefMdNU), but it’s still quite entertaing! It is indeed. The comments beneath only add to the fun. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2023, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/735 "2023-12-20T00:54:54Z")
I particularly enjoyed this comment from path2307: > What’s the big deal? They didn’t taser him, they only tasered his person. And this one from stevemoser6268: > “What are you charging me with?” > “Oh, about 40,000 volts.” ---
**Author:** ![Hurrilon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9adbd/32.png) [@Hurrilon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hurrilon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/736 "2023-12-22T03:01:26Z")
# How about entering a courthouse? Sadly, [this one’s of low definition](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfVbiefMdNU), but it’s still quite entertaining! P. Barnes won the internet with that one! ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/737 "2023-12-22T15:13:09Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > They believe the only reason it didn’t work is because the people they’re reciting their incantations to “violated the law”, “denied them their rights”, etc. It’s never that the sovcit lunatic is, in fact, wrong or did anything at wrong. And this is exacerbated by some of those making money off this nonsense just lying. They film themselves doing ten minutes of stupid arguing with the cops about “driving vs travelling” or whatever, but don’t film the end where they finally just show the cop their driver’s license. They show this to the gullible, who think, “Well, it worked for them, I must have just made a mistake…”, and then go out and try it again. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/738 "2023-12-22T19:14:14Z")
Like the Alabama law that it is illegal to drive blindfolded. I looked it up and yeah, it is illegal to drive with your vision obscured. Imagine that! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/739 "2023-12-22T22:19:30Z")
Good thing. Those cars driving with the windshield fully obscured by 6" of snow with a teeny porthole to see through really piss me off. Good thing the fine folks in Montgomery are on top of that serious threat. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572/740 "2023-12-23T14:07:35Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > It gives you an insight into how quacks can go on handing out “treatments” that don’t work, century after century, without anyone catching on. ACME Snake-Oil … since 1865 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sovereign-citizens-please-tell-me-this-is-fake/769572.md?page=38)